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Re: flourocarbon tippet

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2008/8/24 20:26
From Mount Joy, PA
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This is a pretty good thread. I was thinking of picking up a spool of 6x and 7x fluoro for those "leader shy" fish...

Posted on: 2009/2/19 23:07


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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2006/9/10 11:16
From Harrisburg PA
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GZ,

Thanks for the info. I may try Bass Pro as I am in HBG.

Posted on: 2009/2/20 10:56


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Well,

I've never compared flouro tippet vs. flouro for spinning rods specifically. Generally, tippet is better stuff than line for spinning rods. The strength is better for the diameter, and its less stiff.

That said, its perfectly alright, and I have, to use the spinning rod line as tippet. Not quite as good, but still plenty good enough for 95% of fishing situations. Most of the lines that are sold at Walmart are pretty poor, like Trilene, Fireline, etc., I think they're more made for heavy bass fishing where diameter and subtleness isn't an issue, but pulling off half that log is. But there are a few spinning lines I like for trout fishing, my top 2 are Silver Thread and Tectan. Both are relatively memory free and have the least stiffness I've seen in a spinning rod mono, and on a spinning reel they cast very nicely. Be warned, Tectan gets brittle in cold temperatures, but its great anywhere north of 40 degrees. Both are mono, or more accurately copolymers, but not flouro.

Like someone else who said the same thing, I don't like flouro. The only time I use it is steelhead, and only in low clear conditions. The fish are line shy, and they're big, so you gotta go with 2x or 3x tippets, and any help is good. But in most cases, fish aren't line shy, they're drag shy. We mistake it for being line shy because going to lighter tippet does work, but it only works because its less stiff and causes less drag. Well, flouro is stiffer than mono. In terms of stiffness, if you're using 5x flouro, then you'd do as much good going to 5x mono as you would to 6x flouro. Also, for nymphing I tend to have trouble with flouro holding shot in place, and for dries, flouro doesn't have a visibility advantage anyway when its laying on the surface. Combine all that with the higher cost and taking longer to decompose, well, the answer is clear, for me anyways.

Posted on: 2009/2/20 11:10


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:

Like someone else who said the same thing, I don't like flouro. The only time I use it is steelhead, and only in low clear conditions. The fish are line shy, and they're big, so you gotta go with 2x or 3x tippets, and any help is good. But in most cases, fish aren't line shy, they're drag shy. We mistake it for being line shy because going to lighter tippet does work, but it only works because its less stiff and causes less drag. Well, flouro is stiffer than mono. In terms of stiffness, if you're using 5x flouro, then you'd do as much good going to 5x mono as you would to 6x flouro. Also, for nymphing I tend to have trouble with flouro holding shot in place, and for dries, flouro doesn't have a visibility advantage anyway when its laying on the surface. Combine all that with the higher cost and taking longer to decompose, well, the answer is clear, for me anyways.



What he said!

For steelhead I have used it and in saltwater. For trout it is about as neccessary as 9-12X tippet.

Posted on: 2009/2/21 19:23
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Re: flourocarbon tippet

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2008/3/20 22:15
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Well I kept thinking of this topic so I asked someone quite knowledgeable and there is a difference in the diameter of the line. Pound for Pound Fly Fishing Tippet material is as strong as mono at the same test weight but the fly fishing tippet has a smaller diameter, maybe even a different density. (Forgot to ask that). You can use Mono but it will make a difference in fly presentation. So it goes to show there is always a better mouse trap, even mouse species specific. Glad those guys do the research and we just get to fish.

Posted on: 2009/3/5 20:43


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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Quote:

wetnet wrote:
Well I kept thinking of this topic so I asked someone quite knowledgeable and there is a difference in the diameter of the line. Pound for Pound Fly Fishing Tippet material is as strong as mono at the same test weight but the fly fishing tippet has a smaller diameter, maybe even a different density. (Forgot to ask that). You can use Mono but it will make a difference in fly presentation. So it goes to show there is always a better mouse trap, even mouse species specific. Glad those guys do the research and we just get to fish.


So it goes to show there is always a better mouse trap, even mouse species specific. Glad those guys do the research and we just get to fish.[/


Lost me there. and fluoro sucks. The knot strength is half as what the line is rated for. Fish aren't as leader shy as most would think.
I will use fluoro for steelhead on extremely low clear days. but for trout NO.

Posted on: 2009/3/5 22:06
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Re: flourocarbon tippet

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wetnet,

It's not tippet vs. mono. Both spinning line and tippet material can be made out of the same materials. The difference is in the quality, specifically the diameter tolerances. A spinning line will vary in diameter, and strength, throughout the line moreso than tippet material. And the strength of a line has to be rated by its weakest link. So tippet material does indeed typically have a better rated strength/diameter ratio. The tighter specifications also mean its more expensive to manufacture, and thats the main reason why we pay more for it. If the much longer spinning lines costed that much to manufacture, they wouldn't be affordable.

Monofilament: Abrasion resistant like nothing else, with the best knot strength as you can get, and better strength/diameter ratios than copolymers or flouro. In fly fishing circles its often referred to as nylon, an example is Maxima Chameleon. But many of your Walmart brand of spinning lines are regular mono (ex. Stren, Trilene, etc.). Its weakness is that its generally pretty stiff, although a few brands have done some funky stuff to it to make it less stiff (ex. Tectan for spinning rods and Orvis Super Strong for fly fishing).

Copolymer: It is lses stiff than mono or flouro, but its abrasion resistance and strength are a step behind mono. Most standard tippets are actually copolymers, though in fly fishing circles, because true mono is rare, copolymers are often incorrectly called mono. In spinning lines, some of your more premium lines are copolymers, like Silver Thread.

Flourocarbon: Made from a carbon resin, its very different stuff. It has the same refractive index as water, and thats its major advantage. However, it is important to note that it loses this advantage when laying ON the water, and it also is more dense and doesn't float as high, so its not a good dry fly material. It's less stiff than most mono lines, but still more stiff than a copolymer. Its knot strength and abrasion resistance are typically poor. It is becoming common in both tippet and spinning lines. For instance, Berkley Vanish is a flourocarbon line. Seaguar and Cabelas also make flouro lines for spinning gear. I think every tippet manufacturer has a flouro version.

The last category are the braided lines, or as they are termed in the spinning rod industry, "superlines." The strength/diameter ratio is very good, and they are the least stiff line out there too. By all the measurable properties, they are the best you can get. The problem is that the material needed for these often isn't clear, so despite the fine diameter they are still really visible. They are common in, for instance, bass fishing circles. Furled leaders, though, I guess are similar in theory to braided lines.

It's also hard to tell the strength/diameter ratio from the box. Especially among the cheaper lines. Remember the lines vary in diameter along their lengths, and thus vary in strength too. On the box they have to put the weakest possible strength, and the biggest possible diameter. So even if a standard mono (ex. Berkley Trilene) has better strength/diameter ratio compared to a copolymer, if its tolerances are bigger, it may still appear to be worse if you go by reading the box.

Posted on: 2009/3/6 0:11


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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I don't follow this---
We saltwater types cheerfully pay 6 times as much for flour-- leader material as the mono because there is No contest which is the best.The vis factor not important.

Posted on: 2009/3/6 7:22
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Re: flourocarbon tippet

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Pete,

I don't know quite as much about saltwater fishing as you, but my guesses are:

1. Flouro doesn't break down as easily, due to sunlight, time, etc.(perhaps salt?). It lasts forever, and mono and copolymer decompose.

2. I do think visibility in salt is important. Remember, even larger diameters are supposedly invisible underwater. I've never tested it but it'd be interesting to actually test. Having a large diameter (read strong) line and still be invisible could still be a major advantage.

3. It typically does have a better strength/diameter ratio better than a copolymer. Still not as good as straight mono, but its not as stiff either. And these properties are "typical", but every brand has different methods that may make it not fit the "typical" properties.

4. Flouro doesn't stretch as much as a copolymer, one of the properties that I didn't list. Stretch can be good or bad. Low stretch lowers the toughness when fighting fish on a short line. But it also increases sensitivity and helps with hard hooksets. The hookset thing might be important in the salt.

5. The major disadvantages are stiffness and memory. Straight mono has these issues too, its copolymer that overcomes them (but adds new problems). But memory can be taken care of with a leader straightener. And I don't get the impression drag free drifts are important in saltwater, so the stiffness might not be as much of a factor.

Posted on: 2009/3/6 8:36


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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when I said vis doesn't matter-I was referring to the foot of shock tippet
30 or 40 pound because of blues,spanish teeth and snooks gills.

Posted on: 2009/3/6 8:59
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Re: flourocarbon tippet

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Well,

I might have misled about the abrasion resistance, or at least poorly worded it. It's not as good as mono, but its better than copolymer, on average. So calling it "poor" on abrasion resistance was improper, I apologize. On most properties flouro falls in between mono and copolymer (except its on its own with the visibility). Again, these are averages, individual brands may vary. And I do know they make saltwater tippets which generally are made to sacrifice other properties for abrasion resistance. I never tried them and don't know anything about them.

Stiffness: softer than mono but not as soft as copolymer
memory: better than mono but worse than copolymer
strength/diameter: Better than copolymer but not as good as mono.
abrasion resistance: better than copolymer but not as good as mono
knot strength: Not as good as mono, I'm not sure where it falls compared to copolymer.

True mono is pretty rare in fly fishing these days, except as leader material (i.e. maxima), stiffness being the main reason why. So if being compared to a copolymer, it makes sense to use it as a shock tippet for the better abrasion resistance and knot strength, so long as the stiffness and memory don't matter to you, and in most saltwater fishing I would think they wouldn't matter as much.

Posted on: 2009/3/6 9:15


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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Quote:

pete41 wrote:
I don't follow this---
We saltwater types cheerfully pay 6 times as much for flour-- leader material as the mono because there is No contest which is the best.The vis factor not important.


Saltwater is a whole different story. I think the thread is about tippet for trout. Fluro tippet does suck for trout. I used it for awhile and lost more fish b/c of the knot breaking. I don't have this problem with mono.

I know I have probably posted this before but the guys at my local fly shop tested the strength of fluro tippet. They found that it broke at the knot at half of what it was rated for. Can't deny that.

Posted on: 2009/3/6 10:22
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Re: flourocarbon tippet

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2008/3/20 22:15
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I reread what I wrote. Not worded the best.

Fly Fishing line is BETTER! Better knot strength, better stretch margin. By diameter size it is stronger. (The point I made badly) You can still use other lines in a pinch, but I myself will spend the extra. My point about testing is that there is a ton a research into getting a line where it needs to be. When you pay more you get technology with it. Some things do fall short, and some are good just to get better right after you bought what you thought was the latest and greatest.

Posted on: 2009/3/7 9:16


Re: flourocarbon tippet

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
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good points but im going to stick with my experience.

The knot strength might be less but then you just have to play the fish differently with flouro than with mono.

Getting the fish to bite for me goes up dramatically with flouro to mono in limestone spring creeks. Dunno why but it does. It also goes up dramatically when using 6x or 7x flouro as opposed to any thing less.

I use mono for freestone streams and flouro for limestoners. in the famous words of Sgt Rick Hunter:

"works for me"

Posted on: 2009/3/7 20:29
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Re: flourocarbon tippet

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Quote:

salvelinusfontinalis wrote:
good points but im going to stick with my experience.

The knot strength might be less but then you just have to play the fish differently with flouro than with mono.

Getting the fish to bite for me goes up dramatically with flouro to mono in limestone spring creeks. Dunno why but it does. It also goes up dramatically when using 6x or 7x flouro as opposed to any thing less.

I use mono for freestone streams and flouro for limestoners. in the famous words of Sgt Rick Hunter:

"works for me"


Does that mean you play the fish longer with Fluoro? Just asking, not assuming. Cause the only way to fight them differently would to not put as much pressure on them and fight them longer. just sayin

The smaller the tippet the easier it cuts the water making it easier to get a dragg free drift.........right?

I went on the flouro kick several years back. I think fluro esp. the thin stuff makes up for what might be a bad drift with mono.

I fish mono on limestone spring fed streams and do just fine. I think the performance of your leader is a big factor.

A couple of weeks ago I fished a small limestone. I had a good day catching a bunch of fish. What I realized when I got back to the car was was that I had a 2x leader on from the week before when I was stripping streamers at a tailwater.

Point is is that I didn't realize the 2x and fished it with the confidence of a 4x at a stream where every angler I run into is either using fluro or 7x-8x mono tippet.

Food for thought

Posted on: 2009/3/9 10:23
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