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Re: Rod Action
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Here are two interesting vids of casting by Lasse Karlsson (one of the greatest casters on the planet)

Two rods cast at the same time, same line on both, and same line length.

Bendy rod: Berkley Grayphite 8 feet 5/6
Stiff rod: Sage TCX 690
Line Rio tournament Gold 5 weight

To make up for the difference in length, the rods where taped together so the tips where aligned.

The berkley rod is 75% glassfiber and 25% graphite, has an IP of 97 grams and a AA of 65 (so really according to CCS it's fast ) and a MOI of 76

The sage is full graphite, has an IP of 167 grams, an AA of 74 and a MOI of 70


http://vimeo.com/35513634


Posted on: 2012/2/24 7:38


Re: Rod Action

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Tomi, we don't need to switch rods because according to Jeep, in the hands of a great caster rods are completely interchangeable so he should be able to kick my butt with the Winston TMF at distances of 70-80 feet or so.

The fact is every rod is designed around a specific design point and when not at that specific design point performance is not optimum. Some rod designs are better able to flatten the performance curve across a wider range of distances but the fact is some rods are specificall designed for short range work while others are specifically designed for long range work.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 8:42


Re: Rod Action

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So what's the point of your little contest then? To see which rod is the best at a certain task or to see who is the better caster? Sounded to me like you were laying down the gauntlet of who's the better caster.

If you feel you're the better, then prove it and cast with both just as your competitor will, tally up the scores and put a number on it. If he's able to compensate for the less capable rod in the range you specify, then you should also be able to if you're his equal...


Posted on: 2012/2/24 9:08


Re: Rod Action

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Holy crap, 5 Wt's at 20 paces...................

Posted on: 2012/2/24 9:10


Re: Rod Action

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Tomi,

Jeep said rod action makes no difference in the hands of a skilled caster (I never claimed to be a skilled caster in any of my posts) so therefore he should be able to take a medium action Tom Morgan Favorite that every "expert" says max's out at about 45 feet and kick my butt at 70-80 feet where I am using a fast action NRX rod. I don't care how skilled a caster anyone is, the TMF will kick the crap out of say a Sage TCX at distances under 40 feet where the TCX will kick the crap out of the TMF at distances about 40 feet. It has nothing to do with how good a caster you are, in this example, the TMF is specifically designed for short range casting whereas the TCX is specifically designed for long range casting.

Or since you seem to have missed the whole point of the my post and seem to think this is some challenge to prove who is the better caster, forget the competition, simply let him give a demostration where he proves he can cast the TMF equally as well as the NRX at 80 feet. Not just tossing 80 feet of line but also taking accuracy into account.

The point is in the hands of a skilled caster the action of a well made rod is irrelevant provided the rods are being used within their design range. An expert caster will cast a fast action Sage Z-Axis and a medium action Winston BiiT equally well up to about 45-50 feet but beyond those distances performance of the BiiT will start to drop off dramatically and that has nothing to do with the skill of the caster, it has to do with the rod's design. It is not designed to fire off 80 feet of line accurate, period.

That's the point.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 9:37


Re: Rod Action

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Quote:

Paulson wrote:

Again I learned with my St Croix and it has been good to me. I am still working on a lot of my techniques. I have noticed setting the line down is a bit more difficult to finesse. I have only casted a few rods in my life and my Imperial has taken up the majority of that.


You can set the line down lightly with both fast and slow action rods. And you can also "crash" your casts with both types.

You "crash" your cast when you finish your forward cast stroke with the rod tip too low. So you are driving the cast down towards the water.

The goal is to send the line flying out horizontally, parallel to the surface of the water, not directed downward.

You just have to stop the forward cast a little earlier, with the rod tip higher. Just experiment with this on the lawn, and watch the line. It should fly out horizontal to the ground, slow down, then drop.

Crashing casts by driving the line down towards the water is a very common casting error. I have a lot of experience at that.

But it's also easy to correct, once you are aware of what is happening.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 10:10


Re: Rod Action

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2006/9/9 11:22
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Quote:

GreenWeenie wrote:
Tomi,

Jeep said rod action makes no difference in the hands of a skilled caster (I never claimed to be a skilled caster in any of my posts) so therefore he should be able to take a medium action Tom Morgan Favorite that every "expert" says max's out at about 45 feet and kick my butt at 70-80 feet where I am using a fast action NRX rod. I don't care how skilled a caster anyone is, the TMF will kick the crap out of say a Sage TCX at distances under 40 feet where the TCX will kick the crap out of the TMF at distances about 40 feet. It has nothing to do with how good a caster you are, in this example, the TMF is specifically designed for short range casting whereas the TCX is specifically designed for long range casting.



That doesn't prove that it is the action per se that makes one rod perform well at a shorter distance and the other at longer distances. It only demonstrates that one rod was designed for longer distances and the other for shorter distaces. One just happens to have a fast action and the other a medium action.

I'm geussing it has more to do with stiffness or "power" as our spin fishing friends sometimes call it. Which to us, is how a rod matches to a given line weight, or more precisely a given length of a given line weight.

Kev

Posted on: 2012/2/24 10:17


Re: Rod Action

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PennKev, You are correct but medium action rods generally do not perform well at distances much greater than 50 feet or so - they are designed to load at shorter distances. When it comes to long range cannons, you don't see rod companies designing medium action rods, they design fast action or even ultra fast action.

So while it is true that the design of the rod dictates performance, a medium action design is best suited for short range casting - not long distance - whereas as certain fast action rods are definitely as good as medium action rods at short ranges plus with the added benefit that they can toss 80 feet of line with ease. And some fast action rods are better at shorter ranges that others while some are better at longer distances.

The whole statement by Jeep was misleading by making it sound like if you are a good caster you can take any rod and get it to perform equally well under all conditions. I, not an expert caster, and many true expert casters do not subscribe to that theory.

Here are two excerpts from the Yellowstone Anglers 2011 5wt Shootout.

Sage TCX

Performance at 25 feet – 12 points out of 20
This rod is far too stiff for a #5 line! Almost no feel whatsoever made judging the distance and making accurate casts very difficult. Accuracy was terrible. I switched over to a #6 GPX line and then it was much better, not great, but better at both 25 and 45 feet.

Performance at 70 feet – 19 points out of 20
Finally, the power of this rod makes it come alive with a lot of line in the air. Now I can cast nice tight, controlled loops and get good accuracy. Still not in the same league with the Zenith or NRX with a #5 line at this distance.


Winston BiiiX

Performance at 25 feet: 20 points out of 20
In big letters my notes read: Light and Just Right! That just about sums it up. This rod has a wonderful feel in my hand, loads perfectly, and with its very light swing weight it is a delightful rod for fishing at shorter distances. With better balance and the slightly stiffer tip, it was far more accurate than the older BIIx. If you love fishing dry flies at short to medium distances like I do, you are going to love this rod!

Performance at 70 feet: 18 points out of 20
The overall power, which loaded the rod perfectly at shorter distances is not quite enough to match the more powerful NRX, Z-Axis and the Hardy Zenith, all of which threw tighter loops and posted a more solid performance at long distance. The BIIIx required a harder double haul than the other rods at this distance and the accuracy suffered somewhat. In a direct comparison to the NRX, Z-Axis, and Zenith there was no question that they were all better at long range.









Posted on: 2012/2/24 10:47


Re: Rod Action

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I learned my lesson the hard way.Moved to Montana in 1968 with a whole stable of great on Pennsylvania waters rods.
5,6,7 foot bamboo and a seven and 8ft glass.
Gonna teach those rubes that you didn't need derricks to fish western waters.
First stop,Yellowstone river in the paradise valley.
twenty minutes later I knew who didn't know what they were talking about.
Off to Baileys where they just laughed at my tale of woe.
Heard it many times before.
Walked out with a 9 foot fast action 8wt.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 10:59
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Obstrification> The fine art of confusing liberals.


Re: Rod Action

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GW:
Quote:
The point is in the hands of a skilled caster the action of a well made rod is irrelevant provided the rods are being used within their design range.


Yeah, pretty sure we've agreed to that already. And I really don't see where Jeep's post said anything to the contrary:

Jeep:
Quote:
Rod action has absolutely nothing to do with line speed, loop size, casting into the wind, curve casts, casting long distances, etc, etc, etc. All of these things are directly related to the skill of the caster, not the rod. If you disagree, I'd label you as someone that would greatly benefit from some casting instruction and practice.


I made the assumption that he understands the idea that certain rods are intended for certain tasks, just saying it in his own way.

I guess you read it differently.

I'm just pointing out that if you're going to challenge someone's 'superior skills' because you're feeling put down upon or whatever, then it only makes sense to compete on a level playing field. Otherwise, you're not really proving anything other than that you can design a contest that will only reinforce your view.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 11:08


Re: Rod Action

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Pete, so what you are really saying is you just aren't an accomlplished caster

I learned my lesson on the Delaware. For 29 years I fished either a 6' 5wt Fenwick glass or 7.5' 5wt Fenwick HMG graphite before switching to a 9', 5wt medium action rod. I went to the Delaware with that rod........once.

I now have a fast action 9', 6wt.

I too am just not an accomplished caster.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 11:15


Re: Rod Action

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I used mostly shooting heads with mono running lines and double haul casts-could bang them out.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 11:22
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Re: Rod Action

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Tomi,

The original post seems pretty clear that rod action has nothing to do with performance of any kind -even going so far to specifically reference line speed and distance - and that performance is in the hands of the caster. To me there certainly doesn’t seem to be any stated or implied qualifiers about intended uses.

I am not an expert caster and I can’t cast the TMF 80 feet but I can cast the NRX 80 feet with okay accuracy, so the NRX is my handicap to help compensate for my poor technique and the handicap I am providing in return is I am not a bullseye accurate caster at 80 feet. Since rod action doesn’t matter, an expert caster should be able to cast the TMF more accurately at 80 feet that I can cast the NRX and if they can’t, well they either aren’t an expert caster or maybe, just maybe, rod action does indeed have an effect on distance and accuracy and the original statement is false.

As for designing a contest that will only reinforce your views, you mean like electroshocking?

Posted on: 2012/2/24 11:46


Re: Rod Action

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There was an English fishing story about a club member ridiculing the distances other members claimed they were casting.
He challenged them to a contest.He was right.
They voted him out of the club next day.

Posted on: 2012/2/24 12:04
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Obstrification> The fine art of confusing liberals.


Re: Rod Action

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Like I just said previously, I guess you read his post differently than I did, no more, no less.

Electroshocking, just can't let it go, can you?

Posted on: 2012/2/24 12:14



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