sundrunk
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I'm seeking out a good leader kit for tying my own knotted leader's. Mostly interested in dry-fly tapers. Any suggestions?
JackM
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If you don't need tools to tie blood knots, my recommendation is as follows
pcray1231
Well-known member
First, if you're just starting tying your own, congrats. Though knots can be a hassle, it really adds a lot of flexibility and ability to experiment. Too many people pay so much attention to everything else, and then neglect having a leader designed for what they're doing, which is perhaps the most integral part of presentation.
I started with the leader kit put together by Fly Fishers Paradise in State College. Comes with everything you need, including a book of recommended leader formulas and what knots to use where. Not sure if it comes with tippet, but I believe it does. Either way, you can always substitute your favorite tippet material.
The leader material itself is Maxima leader spools. Dark brown in color.
Advantages: Stiff (turns over flies very well). Very hardy, won't rot or get weaker from abrasion. Good knot strength.
Disadvantages: Has memory, though a run through the leader straightener straightens it out real quick. Its stiff, so you need enough tippet to prevent drag.
You can always use different formulas from any number of places. If its dry fly only, hard to beat the Harvey/Humphries formulas. I'll post them if you want. I still use the Maxima for the butt sections and most of the taper, but I've gone to using softer material for the last few sections when using dry flies, and when pure nymphing, I do away with the taper altogether and go from butt to very long tippet (may taper the tippet, though).
The FFP formulas are still what I use, as written, and all Maxima until the tippet, for most of my fishing, when I'm likely to switch back and forth between dries, nymphs, streamers, etc. You can order by phone and they're very quick with delivery.
I started with the leader kit put together by Fly Fishers Paradise in State College. Comes with everything you need, including a book of recommended leader formulas and what knots to use where. Not sure if it comes with tippet, but I believe it does. Either way, you can always substitute your favorite tippet material.
The leader material itself is Maxima leader spools. Dark brown in color.
Advantages: Stiff (turns over flies very well). Very hardy, won't rot or get weaker from abrasion. Good knot strength.
Disadvantages: Has memory, though a run through the leader straightener straightens it out real quick. Its stiff, so you need enough tippet to prevent drag.
You can always use different formulas from any number of places. If its dry fly only, hard to beat the Harvey/Humphries formulas. I'll post them if you want. I still use the Maxima for the butt sections and most of the taper, but I've gone to using softer material for the last few sections when using dry flies, and when pure nymphing, I do away with the taper altogether and go from butt to very long tippet (may taper the tippet, though).
The FFP formulas are still what I use, as written, and all Maxima until the tippet, for most of my fishing, when I'm likely to switch back and forth between dries, nymphs, streamers, etc. You can order by phone and they're very quick with delivery.
Acristickid
Well-known member
I got the leader kit similar to what pcray stated. I learned how to tie on that kit. I am gonna gravitate toward Jacks formula next- cheaper.
You don't need to buy a leader tool. I used 3 nails a piece of wood and some chip clips oosimilar. This makes tying them a snap. Make sure the middle nail loose enough to where you can pull it out and twist it between the two lines- pull out moisten and tighten.
Here is a picture of the tool I made. Found all this stuff in my garage. I tie next to the computer.
You don't need to buy a leader tool. I used 3 nails a piece of wood and some chip clips oosimilar. This makes tying them a snap. Make sure the middle nail loose enough to where you can pull it out and twist it between the two lines- pull out moisten and tighten.
Here is a picture of the tool I made. Found all this stuff in my garage. I tie next to the computer.
Attachments
pcray1231
Well-known member
Acristic,
Neat tool. I don't have anything that fancy. My equipment includes my hands and a tape measure. Every once in a while (twice a year max), I'll replace the butt section, meaning new nail knot to fly line, and have to use a nail, or pen insert, or anything I happen to have handy.
Neat tool. I don't have anything that fancy. My equipment includes my hands and a tape measure. Every once in a while (twice a year max), I'll replace the butt section, meaning new nail knot to fly line, and have to use a nail, or pen insert, or anything I happen to have handy.
JustFish
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Shakespeare from walmart works just as good as the above and is a fraction of the price and you get a ton more of material for your money!!
sundrunk
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Thanks,
I take it there is a micrometer being gagged for Stren, triline and Shakespeare brands. Is there a difference among the bass line substitutes and the Maxima, Masons of the world. I was considering Mason, but have to admit the cheaper bass line recommendations from jackm and justfish look good. Mason looks to be less in cost the maxima. I hear Maxima requires a micrometer...
How stiff is Triline, Stren, Shakespeare when compared to Mason/Maxima?
I take it there is a micrometer being gagged for Stren, triline and Shakespeare brands. Is there a difference among the bass line substitutes and the Maxima, Masons of the world. I was considering Mason, but have to admit the cheaper bass line recommendations from jackm and justfish look good. Mason looks to be less in cost the maxima. I hear Maxima requires a micrometer...
How stiff is Triline, Stren, Shakespeare when compared to Mason/Maxima?
JackM
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sundrunk, don't pay any attention to me. I am a hacker, not a perfectionist. If I can get 250 yards of monofilament fishing line for the same price as 60 yards of 0X tippet, there's no question in my mind what I am buying. I tie my leaders with what I had left over from my spin-fishing day and have supplemented a couple pound-test with whatever I found in the bargain bin.
If you are buying new, you would want the stiffer stuff at the butt and more supple stuff toward the fly. Most monos state their characteristics, such as "extra tough" (read stiff) or "limp" (read limp).
You may notice that I showed Orvis tippet at the end. I would recommend that you use fly tippet material from at least 3X forward, though I do use the Stren "limp" in (IIRC) 6 lb. as a substitute. In the butt and even thicker mid-sections, I don't think that the price of tippet is worth it, but others probably do.
When you get to 3X in most leader formulas of 5X terminal (my most common), you are only using 6-12 inch segments at a time anyhow. On the other hand, the butt segment and even mid-segments can be anywhere from 12 to 36 inches, which will eat up spools of expensive fly tippet quickly.
If you are buying new, you would want the stiffer stuff at the butt and more supple stuff toward the fly. Most monos state their characteristics, such as "extra tough" (read stiff) or "limp" (read limp).
You may notice that I showed Orvis tippet at the end. I would recommend that you use fly tippet material from at least 3X forward, though I do use the Stren "limp" in (IIRC) 6 lb. as a substitute. In the butt and even thicker mid-sections, I don't think that the price of tippet is worth it, but others probably do.
When you get to 3X in most leader formulas of 5X terminal (my most common), you are only using 6-12 inch segments at a time anyhow. On the other hand, the butt segment and even mid-segments can be anywhere from 12 to 36 inches, which will eat up spools of expensive fly tippet quickly.
sundrunk
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jackM,
I think you're on to something. I'm just thinking maybe I should go by the book this first round. Once I'm able to get a feel for things I'll try your more creative option. I must admit there is a cost is a consideration involved in this process.
I think you're on to something. I'm just thinking maybe I should go by the book this first round. Once I'm able to get a feel for things I'll try your more creative option. I must admit there is a cost is a consideration involved in this process.
pcray1231
Well-known member
sundrunk,
Most lines designed for spinning rods are made to be supple (limp). While they vary in their ability to succeed at such a goal, none of them strive to be stiff. But stiff is what you want in the butt sections and first part of the taper in a leader. I can't speak for Mason, but the Maxima I use is extraordinarily stiff. I believe its called Chamelion, at any rate, its the "brown stuff." It will be considerably stiffer than any of the "bass" lines at the same diameter.
Why would it require a micrometer? The diameter is printed right on the spools.
Now, for the back half of the taper, and of course the tippet, the equation changes. You want supple, especially for dry flies, to give you those S-curves. I don't think the lines meant for spin fishing will match the FF designed materials, but they'll come close at a lower price tag, and you can certainly get away with a substitute. I still do a bit of spin-fishing, and though I haven't tried every line in the book, I've been less than impressed with Trilene, its kind of stiff, coils easily, and I've had trouble with it in cold water. The best I've seen are Silver Thread, and Tectan (sold exclusively through Cabelas).
If you stay with the FF brands, stay away from flourocarbon. There is absolutely no advantage regarding visibility if you're using dry flies. And its stiffer, which is the exact opposite as you want in a tippet material. On top of that, its ridiculously expensive and less environmentally friendly.
Most lines designed for spinning rods are made to be supple (limp). While they vary in their ability to succeed at such a goal, none of them strive to be stiff. But stiff is what you want in the butt sections and first part of the taper in a leader. I can't speak for Mason, but the Maxima I use is extraordinarily stiff. I believe its called Chamelion, at any rate, its the "brown stuff." It will be considerably stiffer than any of the "bass" lines at the same diameter.
Why would it require a micrometer? The diameter is printed right on the spools.
Now, for the back half of the taper, and of course the tippet, the equation changes. You want supple, especially for dry flies, to give you those S-curves. I don't think the lines meant for spin fishing will match the FF designed materials, but they'll come close at a lower price tag, and you can certainly get away with a substitute. I still do a bit of spin-fishing, and though I haven't tried every line in the book, I've been less than impressed with Trilene, its kind of stiff, coils easily, and I've had trouble with it in cold water. The best I've seen are Silver Thread, and Tectan (sold exclusively through Cabelas).
If you stay with the FF brands, stay away from flourocarbon. There is absolutely no advantage regarding visibility if you're using dry flies. And its stiffer, which is the exact opposite as you want in a tippet material. On top of that, its ridiculously expensive and less environmentally friendly.
sundrunk
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pcray,
So when you are using maxima are you taking the butt and mid sections down to 0x and going with orvis ss or another brand fly fishing tippet down to 2x....7x, 8x?
Where does the butt and mid-sections end and where does the tippet begin. Should I buy maxima and mason down to 0x, or should I just buy a complete kit of one or the other? I've heard from several folks that they use maxima or mason for butts and mids and switch over to another brand they prefer for tippet segments.
So when you are using maxima are you taking the butt and mid sections down to 0x and going with orvis ss or another brand fly fishing tippet down to 2x....7x, 8x?
Where does the butt and mid-sections end and where does the tippet begin. Should I buy maxima and mason down to 0x, or should I just buy a complete kit of one or the other? I've heard from several folks that they use maxima or mason for butts and mids and switch over to another brand they prefer for tippet segments.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Yeah, I don't remember the exact point at which I switch over, but thats the basic idea. Stiff butt, soft tippet. And the taper I may use either, depending on the situation. You can find formulas about anywhere, I've found I really like the ones in Humphries "Trout Tactics."
Overall, if you want the whole shebang. Get butt sizes in stiff material. Tippet use you're favorite brand, you're looking for as limp as you can find, coupled with price considerations as you will be replacing this much more. For the taper sections, have both soft and stiff and adjust for the situation. I've had my set for 4-5 years, and have not needed to replace anything but the tippet. I think the initial price for the whole kit was $30-$40.
My general philosophy:
Tight Brush: stiff butt, short stiff taper (even skipping a few "steps"), adjust tippet as appropriate for stream, balancing accuracy against drag control.
Small flies or open water: stiff butt, long taper with a lot of "steps", starting stiff and ending soft, and add tippet of variable length. Longer means less drag problems, but it it piles up its too long, adjust as needed.
Nymphs: If not switching back and forth between dries and nymphs, I eliminate taper altogether, going from stiff butt to maybe a 7 foot tapered tippet. Thin lines cut water better and get deep. If switching, I just add a fairly long tippet (maybe 4 feet) to a dry fly leader, piling up isn't much of a problem with heavier flies that sink.
Streamers/buggers, etc.: The taper is well formed (many short "steps") and all stiff material. Short tippets.
Wets: Usually a dry fly leader.
Overall, if you want the whole shebang. Get butt sizes in stiff material. Tippet use you're favorite brand, you're looking for as limp as you can find, coupled with price considerations as you will be replacing this much more. For the taper sections, have both soft and stiff and adjust for the situation. I've had my set for 4-5 years, and have not needed to replace anything but the tippet. I think the initial price for the whole kit was $30-$40.
My general philosophy:
Tight Brush: stiff butt, short stiff taper (even skipping a few "steps"), adjust tippet as appropriate for stream, balancing accuracy against drag control.
Small flies or open water: stiff butt, long taper with a lot of "steps", starting stiff and ending soft, and add tippet of variable length. Longer means less drag problems, but it it piles up its too long, adjust as needed.
Nymphs: If not switching back and forth between dries and nymphs, I eliminate taper altogether, going from stiff butt to maybe a 7 foot tapered tippet. Thin lines cut water better and get deep. If switching, I just add a fairly long tippet (maybe 4 feet) to a dry fly leader, piling up isn't much of a problem with heavier flies that sink.
Streamers/buggers, etc.: The taper is well formed (many short "steps") and all stiff material. Short tippets.
Wets: Usually a dry fly leader.
sundrunk
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Thank you all for the great advice. I ended up getting a complete Orvis kit from .023 down. Picked up a Maxima butt kit.
During the Cicada we used older, still in great condition, Dan Bailey, knotted, Dia Riki leaders. Those leaders stood up against the play of giant trout, time after time.
There is so much to our sport and none of it should be rushed...
During the Cicada we used older, still in great condition, Dan Bailey, knotted, Dia Riki leaders. Those leaders stood up against the play of giant trout, time after time.
There is so much to our sport and none of it should be rushed...
