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Re: Fly Line Preferences
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2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
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Shortrod,

That's a great link you posted with info about WF vs. DT lines. What is written there that you disagree with and call "propaganda?"

Lines
Every few years, there seems to be a debate on WF lines vs DT lines. This age old debate is more fueled by false assumptions than true facts. Of course, if you like DT lines, continue to buy DT lines. If you like WF lines, continue to buy WF lines. Stick with what works! Which is better really depends on the specific line and the specific application.

First, yes, it is true that a DT line can be used twice if you're willing to turn it around and reuse the other side. No, this is obviously not an option on a WF line. So for the budget minded angler, a DT has some appeal.

It gets a bit more complicated when people claim that a DT can pick up easier, can carry more line, can mend better, and the favorite, can roll cast better than a WF line. All of these claims assume that you are fishing distances beyond the rear taper of the WF line. If you are fishing distances less than the length of the Front Taper+Belly of the line, you are virtually fishing the exact same line.

DT:

Until you reach the rear taper of the WF line, these two lines are identical. For this specific line, the Front Taper and the Belly add up to 28 feet (for the WF-5). Add a 9 foot leader to it an you're now at 37'. So if you have out 37 feet of line out or less (assuming a 9 foot leader), you are fishing the same line. It'll pick up the same, carry the same, mend the same, and yes, roll cast the same.
Once you go past that 37' foot mark, things change.

The WF line will allow you to shoot the line since a thin running line goes through the guides much better than the thick belly of the DT. On the flip side, the DT can allow you to carry more line since a longer head usually always translates to more line control at distances. However, there is a point that it becomes difficult to carry a significant amount of line due to the amount of weight beyond the rod tip and at this point, a DT become more cumbersome than a WF line. You may find that by shooting a WF line you can achieve greater distances more efficiently than a DT line.

This same principle applies to picking up line. Picking up more than 37' of line off the water and generating enough energy to cast can be difficult, no matter your casting ability. It's simple physics - you cannot generate enough speed with the rod to move that much weight of the line. This isnt to say it cannot be done, longer rods can help with this, but it is difficult, especially with lighter line weights.

The 'DT lines mend better' argument is probably the most sound of them all. More thick line in the rod tip, the more control you have on the water. However, unless you're stack mending down stream, nymphing presentations beyond 37' are pretty ineffective and pretty susceptible to drag. Not only that, again, it's pretty difficult to pick up more than 37' of line (see above argument).

And then there's the favorite, 'DT lines roll cast better.' Roll casting more than 37' with a 6 weight or less is pretty difficult. Unless you are a skilled single hand spey caster, you're not likely to roll cast beyond 37'. Again, it can be done and longer rods help, but it's difficult. Furthermore, if you are roll casting beyond 37', a WF line will give you even more of an advantage since the transition to a thin running line will buy you even more distance! Take a look at a skagit line's taper and you'll understand. There's a reason all spey lines are WF.

Remember, all this hinges on whether or not you are fishing beyond the length of the front taper+belly (and dont forget the leader length). Those that fish small streams or pocket water will rarely cast beyond our example of 37' and most lines on the market happen to have a front taper + belly that's 37' or beyond. So aside from the fact that you can flip a DT line around, there are virtually no differences between the two lines until you get beyond that 37' mark.

Again, get what works for you! If it isn't broke, don't fix it, right? But next time you're chosing a line and someone claims DT or WF is best, understand why.


Link to source: http://www.scientificanglers.com/insider/2012/04/wf-vs-dt-debate

Posted on: 2012/6/12 12:11


Re: Fly Line Preferences

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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That is a great link.

That 37' length for the Mastery series they compare is less than it'd be for most other lines. And that's length of fly line off the tip of the rod, add leader and you're talking 45-50' minimum before it even begins to make any difference in casting.

Sure, I can cast that far standing in a mowed yard. Not a whole lot further, though. And put me waste deep, with weeds or trees on the bank behind me, and then tell me to be able to control drag on a dry fly at that distance? No way. And nymphing, ha, yeah right. Even on big water like Penns or the LJR, I rarely if ever have actually fished at those kind of distances.

For a spey rod, salt water, etc., sure, go with a WF, it makes sense there. But for trout in PA, I just see no advantage of a WF at all.

The advantage of a DT is pretty small, though. Turning it around is nice in case of nicks or damage. But as far as longevity, if the whole thing is on the reel, I tend to get it wet and expose it to the elements, and it wears out even if not being used. The only time I get a big longevity advantage is on my true small stream rods, where I cut it in half and store a fresh half in the basement.

Posted on: 2012/6/12 13:13


Re: Fly Line Preferences

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Quote:

ryguyfi wrote:
I'm actually working on starting up my own fly fishing business ...

I'll have some product in the next few weeks...


For ANYONE who ever complains about
- the rising cost of fly fishing gear
- the closing of fly shops


this is one of the main reasons why

Posted on: 2012/6/12 13:33


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6482
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Hey Ramcatt!!! Stop with the bashing!!! It is completely uncalled for.

Posted on: 2012/6/12 14:06
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Re: Fly Line Preferences

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Hey ryguyfi!!! stop trying to sell knock off grey market products!!!

it is completely uncalled for and the reason people have to pay more money for real fly fishing gear...

prime example is the increasing cost of fly lines, as mentioned in this thread

Posted on: 2012/6/12 14:19


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
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You can honestly say that 100% of the FF products you use are made in the US? All the big companies got their start somewhere and that's all I'm trying to do. The "big" companies must be making a killing then because their mark up is massive compared to what mine will be. You think a $100 fly line actually costs anywhere close to that to manufacture? It's the marketing and belief that "we're better so you should pay more for our products". I've flat out seen some well known companies products and see what they pay for them.

.... and you're complaining about my markup.


it's business. Get over it.

Posted on: 2012/6/12 14:26
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Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2007/10/7 0:44
From philadelphia
Posts: 876
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i would be a bad example for a marketing survey.

i like level lines and click and pawl reels.i do use DT and WF lines if they came on a reel,were on sale or were the only available option for a given weight.

but,i imagine some people are reading this thread because they want to try other tapers.i just want to say my favorite taper is none.

(my second favorite taper is gudebrod torpedo taper on silk line no longer made.)

Posted on: 2012/6/12 14:40


Re: Fly Line Preferences

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Posts: 735
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i never said anything about US vs. import

i'm talking about sites like alibaba... or where-ever your finding stuff
you have no R&D / progression of the sport /QA

just picking off an orderform

The larger FF companies make something/ have something to offer
thats where they got their start
not hocking low quality products for low costs

you are selling, at best, grey market tapers built on jumk materials with no coatings
at worst re-packaged weedwacker line

the larger companies come with years of delevopment and top grade materials... $$$ spent on taper devolpment and testing of line construction and materials... and then being able to back any warranty issues

the larger FF companies are not making a "killing"... becuase they are supporting jobs in the US... at the manufacturer, sales rep, and distributor levels... thats were the $$ goes

not to some person looking at alibaba.com with dollar signs in their eyes and no reguard for the product or consumer

yes its businees

and yours is hocking garbage


Posted on: 2012/6/12 14:42


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/6/5 14:47
From SW PA/Tioga
Posts: 196
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afishinado,

<< What is written there that you disagree with and call "propaganda?"

I do not disagree with anything in the article. Everything in it is true.

It is propaganda because of a) its intent b) what is left out and c) its spin.

Intent:
The article has 10 paragraphs 7 of those paragraphs explain why a WF is at least the equal if not better than a DT. If the intent of the article was anything other than that, it was incredibly poorly written. I do not believe that is the case. I believe it was masterfully written, so well that you had to ask why I call it propaganda.

Left Out:
Quoted from the article in a paragraph explaining why the mending advantage of DT lines is of little value: "nymphing presentations beyond 37' are pretty ineffective and pretty susceptible to drag. Not only that, again, it's pretty difficult to pick up more than 37' of line." True, what is not said is that dry fly presentations are even more ineffective at that distance and that the advantage of a WF line does not start until beyond that 37'.

Spin:
"Stick with what works!"
"If it isn't broke, don't fix it, right?"

They know that the vast majority of new-to-the-sport customers are going to start out with a combo package. It just so happens that the combo packages are created by companies that market lines. All of these packages come with WF lines. So what they are really saying is "You have always used a WF line and that has always worked for you, so keep buying WF lines."

"if you're willing to turn it around"
The words suggest that the process is difficult or a hassle.

"So for the budget minded angler, a DT has some appeal"
The word "budget" implies inferior.

The entire article takes the form of a classic argument. First the opposing view is introduced and then discounted or refuted. Then you argue your position. I learned about this stuff in an English Writing class but the same prof taught the same material to lawyers who make a living by making arguments.

Posted on: 2012/6/12 14:56


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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I thought it was well written.

Starts right off the bat by stating they are 100% equal up to 37' of fly line, plus leader, so mid 40's distance. That's not common knowledge to most guys, and most guys happen to use WF. They didn't have to say anything at all, but they did. They likely turned more people to DT with this article than vice versa.

Then yeah, they get into the minutia of differences beyond that distance, constantly reminding you that it only affects things if you are casting beyond that distance.

The article targets all FF. Out west, on big trout rivers, tossing streamers long distances from drift boats isn't uncommon. It may matter there! But the reader has to apply it to their own situation. If there's zero difference at 45', it stands reason that there's very little difference at 50', a little more at 55', and so on. And the PA fishermen has to read that and say, ok, how often to do I fish at distances where it would matter?

I do not put "inferior" with "budget." Of course, this coming from a guy who actually owns and likes gear from the likes of Stearns, Pro-Line, and Field and Stream, yet has never owned anything made by Simms.

Posted on: 2012/6/12 15:27


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
Posts: 4469
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I like DT for most of the kind of fishing i do and have had real good luck with the braided leader connectors , but i'm going to try a welded loop the next line i buy. Do they make the welded loops in small line sizes 3-4?

Posted on: 2012/6/15 9:23


Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6482
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I have never used the braided connectors. Heard too many horror stories of them slipping off.


They make welded loops on just about any line now. I pretty much make my own loop like others on here by attaching a butt section of 30-50lb mono and putting a loop on there. Pretty easy to change out leaders that way.

Posted on: 2012/6/15 10:39
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Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2007/10/7 0:44
From philadelphia
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i also make my own loop,but i double the line and whip finish over it.

Posted on: 2012/6/16 9:39


Re: Fly Line Preferences

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2007/10/17 10:49
From florida
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Posted on: 2012/6/16 12:10
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Re: Fly Line Preferences

Joined:
2009/6/5 14:47
From SW PA/Tioga
Posts: 196
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pcray1231,

<< Starts right off the bat by stating they are 100% equal up to 37' of fly line, plus leader, so mid 40's distance.

If by "right off the bat" you mean the third paragraph, yes that is said in support of the first two sentences of the paragraph.

"It gets a bit more complicated when people claim that a DT can pick up easier, can carry more line, can mend better, and the favorite, can roll cast better than a WF line. All of these claims assume that you are fishing distances beyond the rear taper of the WF line."

<< That's not common knowledge to most guys,
Interesting. The info has always been available.

<< They didn't have to say anything at all, but they did.
Its pretty clear that the author is refuting certain claims of advantages of DT lines. Explaining that both lines are the same to 37' is evidence in refuting those claim.


<< They likely turned more people to DT with this article than vice versa.
The article has 10 paragraphs and 7 of them deal directly with reasons not to use DT lines. I think no one else on the planet would have come to that conclusion. You have a rather unique ability to focus on a single tree despite the forest. I hope you have found a way to use this ability to your advantage in your day job.

<< The article targets all FF. Out west ... It may matter there!
The article targets FF who think that DT lines pick up easier, can carry more line, can mend better, and roll cast better.

<< If there's zero difference at 45', it stands reason that there's very little difference at 50', a little more at 55', and so on.
100%

<< And the PA fishermen has to read that and say, ok, how often to do I fish at distances where it would matter?

All FF would be wise to ask that question. But, I don't think the line manufacturers want them to.

<< I do not put "inferior" with "budget."

Admittedly, that was a stretch. But, given the overwhelming evidence of the authors intention, I did not think it out of the question.

Posted on: 2012/6/19 19:12



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