New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

[Stagger_Lee]

I have recently begun my journey in tying. Starting slow and trying to just tie some basic patterns I do not have in my boxes that I need to use on streams I hit often. Only been a few weeks and I’m ok but very frustrated with one very impt aspect so here is where I’m at ..

Doing OK with the lead wire, the threading the hooks and using the bobbin, the threading tool has kept my patience in check. Dubbing the thread is eh and I’ve been trying to get the distribution right but I’m guessing that comes with experience so I’m not getting to mental over that.

My big problem has been whip finishing. No matter how many times I watch youtube videos I can’t do it. I’m basically finishing my ties by wrapping and just putting a dab of cement in hope it won’t fall apart on the stream. I’m continuing to practice the basic tying techniques but I’m baffled that I cant get it.

Is whip finishing suppose to be this tough or am I missing something?

The following photos are suppose to be Al’s Rat and I’m curious what u guys think. Criticize away please and look @ the strands @ the head .... this is where I’m really getting frustrated …

 

[Stagger_Lee]

 

[mike_richardson]

you can also look up whip finishing by hand. I use and oldschool whip finisher that has a spring on it. Really it is not hard, and I am sure if you lived close to someone on here you could pick it up pretty easy.

I live in Cambria County, and work in Somerset. Would be more than happy to show you sometime if you are close to this area.

 

[jay348]

Just keep on practicing the whip...one day it will click and become second nature. I swear.

In the meantime...any chance you've learned the half hitch? Two or three half hitches will hold up as well as any whip finish. Much simpler to learn too. I finished all of my flies this way for a couple years (until I made myself learn the whip).

 

[mario66pens]

Stags have you considered using the half hitch for now?

 

[Stagger_Lee]

Lol ... No clue abt that, just googled it and looks simple enough.. Gonna try tonight after work or this weekend if I tie a few more. Will the cement hold my other flies or should I just chalk'em up to growing pains?

Think 3 weeks to the beginner jam and I'll just annoy the frack out of JT @ his station to get the whip finish down tho I'll keep on trying

 

[melvinp]

Get a rotating whip finish tool,much easier than a non rotating tool.Once you get the hang you will do fine.Hand whips take a little more talent.Try a dubbing loop for your dubbing.dont be afraid of put to much in your loops just spin it than remove the extra before you wrap.

 

[BrookieChaser]

As for dubbing, I'm old skool and still use wax.

As for the whip finish, I do a whip finish by hand (I guess old skool again). To learn this take a large streamer hook and thicker thread where you can see the process. What the whip finish is, is wrapping your thread wraps over the tag end while the tag end is against the hook shank. Break the process down and try looking at it in parts.

If you can get past this guy's nervous tendencies, it has some good explanations. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQQvv_tqNmw

Half hitches will work, though from my experience they don't hold up as well. That being said, I would use half hitches until you get the whip finish down. Be sure to coat the half hitches with head cement, both top and bottom.

 

[RonB]

I use a matarelli whip finisher. Not sure spelling is correct. I used the other type but the Materelli works easier for me. Just practice with it on a bare hook till you get it. Once you got it, its like riding a bicycle you'll never forget.
I would think your ones you already tied may come undone, but I would give them a try instead of wasting them. A couple fish caught on them and it would be worth it.

 

[lv2nymph]

Stag. the first one looks good, the dubbing looks balled up on the other ones though. They will catch fish. You did not say if you're trying to whip finish with a tool or by hand, when I started tying I learned to do it by hand. My biggest problem was my hands are too dry and always broke the thread so I went to the whip finish tool. It will take a while to master, best thing to do is to practice it on a bare hook. That way your not concentrating on to many things at once at the vise. And screwing up a fly at the end when you finally feel happy with it. It is important to learn that knot so stay with it, when you become to frustrated go do something else for awhile and come back to it later.

Oh, go lighter with the dubbing too.

 

[fishbaithohaha]

When starting, I finished all ties with multiple half hitches. For a tool used a ink pen, after removing the cartridge.

Guessing you've look on u-tube for instructional videos. Following is a site that may prove useful; http://kwsu.org/Offers/FlyTying.aspx.

 

[PennKev]

melvinp wrote:
Try a dubbing loop for your dubbing.dont be afraid of put to much in your loops just spin it than remove the extra before you wrap.

Dubbing loops are not the easiest of things. He's having trouble with the normal method of dubbing and is challenged by whip finishes. Dubbing loops are not going to solve any problems, IMO. Additionally, loops are a specific method used to create a specific effect.


Stagger,

Try twisting *very* small amounts of dubbing on the thread at a time. Start with just a tiny wisp , you can always add more to sections of the thread that appear to thin. Also pull your dubbing material apart so that it is not a concentrated clump before you start twisting. Don't worry about covering too long of a section of the thread with dubbing, you can always pull off the excess after you've wrapped the body. Also wax may help you get things to stay together if the dubbing doesn't want to seem to stay tight to the thread. Lastly, twist in only one direction. Don't rub the thread back and forth between your fingers.

Kev

 

[Stagger_Lee]

I’m also gonna throw this in this thread..

Worked on WBugger's for the 1st time this past Sun and Mon. Have a purchased a ton over the years but wanted to work on other tying techniques considering it can only help me. The saddle hackle gave me some big problems

Stroked the feather back and it really didn’t separate much and definitely not even. Feeling good abt the tail (for a newbie), the chenille once I got the length down, wrapping, etc .. Saddle Hackle is a big problem with the ones I’ve tried to tie. They have all looked like this … could it be technique or just quality?? I ask this cause HA and DD told me abt quality materials, the process and how difficult it can be to get. I couldn't tell u the difference in any of the materials I've used as they all seem fine until this issue ....

This is my WB disaster un-finished cause I couldn't finish any of 'em.

 

[Stagger_Lee]

lv2nymph - Yes I'm gonna have to get a feel for how much dubbing to use which will come with time. Tying the walts worm went a lil heavy on dubbing as well so I'm gonna try to use less. I think, and correct me if I'm wrong ... that and my technique is part of the balling up? Also .. using a whip tool ... having enough issues with my dry skin (hands) and the thread so not sure if that's a good idea until it warms up a lil

Melvin – will look into the difference of rotating and non-rotating. Also not sure what a dubbing loop is but will check it out

Brookiechaser – what is this wax u speak of?


Pennkev – Don’t know why I didn’t think abt that. I’m gonna tie some more this weekend, stick with these basic patterns maybe ad a scud as l2nymph told me to try, and go light on the dubbing ... not happy just ad a lil more.

 

[dc410]

Hang in there Stagger on that whip finish - you will eventually get it but sitting down with someone who knows it will be a big help. I predict that after the newbie jam you will probably have a good handle on it. Until then using several half hitches will work fine, but you definitely need to end your flies with some sort of a finishing knot.
As far as the wooly buggers go. Your issue may be the quality of your material. The butt end of the feather in your photo almost has a marabou type look to it and the stem gets very heavy real quick. I like to use Strung Rooster Saddles tied in tip first. They usually seperate nicely but are still very webby toward the butt end. However, there is generally plenty of length of decent quality hackle to tie a long shank #6 or #8 wooly bugger. Extra small ultra wire counter wrapped (opposite direction) through the palmered saddle hackle adds a ton of durability to a wooly bugger without trapping down too many fibers if the fibers seperated pretty well on their own. Keep at it and good luck!

 

[lv2nymph]

PennKev wrote:

Stagger,

Try twisting *very* small amounts of dubbing on the thread at a time. Start with just a tiny wisp , you can always add more to sections of the thread that appear to thin. Also pull your dubbing material apart so that it is not a concentrated clump before you start twisting. Don't worry about covering too long of a section of the thread with dubbing, you can always pull off the excess after you've wrapped the body. Also wax may help you get things to stay together if the dubbing doesn't want to seem to stay tight to the thread. Lastly, twist in only one direction. Don't rub the thread back and forth between your fingers.

Kev

This is spot on...

 

[ebroesicke]

FWIW the al's rat is not a dubbed body fly, just thread. Not sure from your pictures if that is what you did. Al used a heavy monocord as the thread to build the body without having to go over the hook too many times. The dubbing at the front should be minimal at best. Someone once told me to pick out the amount of dubbing you think you need and then hold it up in the air and let go. If it falls down quickly you have too much. It should sort of float around in the air. Then use about half of that. Don't worry too much about wax. I use it sometimes, but modern threads hold the dubbing pretty well. Its one of those things you have to keep doing over and over. I think AK Best said you don't really get the hang of a certain fly until you tie like 10 dozen.

Your WB hackle gets too thick too quickly, you will only get a few turns until it becomes unusable.

Hand whip finish isn't too hard you just need someone to show you how its done.

 

[BrookieChaser]

Stagger, I wax (regular wax) the thread before dubbing. This helps the fine dubbing stick to the thread. You can buy wax at a fly shop, similar to bowstring wax.

 

[PennKev]

Stagger_Lee wrote:
They have all looked like this … could it be technique or just quality?? I ask this cause HA and DD told me abt quality materials, the process and how difficult it can be to get. I couldn't tell u the difference in any of the materials I've used as they all seem fine until this issue ....

That is not a suitable feather for palmering hackle on a wooly bugger. At least not to produce a traditional looking bugger.

Strung saddle hackles usually don't look like that. They usually only have fluff near the base and the rest looks like a softer version of a neck hackle. This is definitely a material issue.

Also since you posted a pick here's a couple more tips:

1. Tie in a fuller tail. You can combine marabou from multiple feathers if needed.

2. Use a thinner diameter chenille wrapped more closely/tightly.

4. If you are not already doing so, strip the last 1/4" or so of fibers off your chenille with your fingers to expose the thread core. Tie in just the core and don't wrap over the bulky chenille. Wrap chenille body as normal once tied in. This process will lead to a neater, more uniform body that is easier to wrap your hackle over.

Kev

 

[Stagger_Lee]

1st Scud

Tried size 18 and 16 to small for me ... gonna need more experience. Think this is a size 12 and it’s what I’ve been tying with and most comfortable.

Do not have dubbing brush which this pattern called for ... am I going to need one?

I was too stingy w/ the wire (noted for future) but the ½ hitch worked great ... did 3 but how many to end the tie?

The dubbing I picked up with HA @ the somerset show seems to work better then the one that came with the kit ... more 'fibery' is the only word I can think of.

More critiques please, on all fly’s and I have thick skin.

Should I stick with these 3 for a bit considering the materials for the Bugger is giving me issues ... Walts Worm, Al's Rat, and the scud and try to work on them OR do u gents suggest a few others to work on as well?

Also ... read a bunch online abt Charlie Craven's Basic Fly Tying Book ... seems to be a good invest .. what says u gents?