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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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2012/1/13 15:28
From Ferguson Twp.
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Quote:

PennKev wrote:
[quote]

Stagger,

Try twisting *very* small amounts of dubbing on the thread at a time. Start with just a tiny wisp , you can always add more to sections of the thread that appear to thin. Also pull your dubbing material apart so that it is not a concentrated clump before you start twisting. Don't worry about covering too long of a section of the thread with dubbing, you can always pull off the excess after you've wrapped the body. Also wax may help you get things to stay together if the dubbing doesn't want to seem to stay tight to the thread. Lastly, twist in only one direction. Don't rub the thread back and forth between your fingers.

Kev


This is spot on...

Posted on: 2/21 17:48
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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FWIW the al's rat is not a dubbed body fly, just thread. Not sure from your pictures if that is what you did. Al used a heavy monocord as the thread to build the body without having to go over the hook too many times. The dubbing at the front should be minimal at best. Someone once told me to pick out the amount of dubbing you think you need and then hold it up in the air and let go. If it falls down quickly you have too much. It should sort of float around in the air. Then use about half of that. Don't worry too much about wax. I use it sometimes, but modern threads hold the dubbing pretty well. Its one of those things you have to keep doing over and over. I think AK Best said you don't really get the hang of a certain fly until you tie like 10 dozen.

Your WB hackle gets too thick too quickly, you will only get a few turns until it becomes unusable.

Hand whip finish isn't too hard you just need someone to show you how its done.

Posted on: 2/21 17:49
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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Stagger, I wax (regular wax) the thread before dubbing. This helps the fine dubbing stick to the thread. You can buy wax at a fly shop, similar to bowstring wax.

Posted on: 2/21 17:57
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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2006/9/9 11:22
From New Castle, PA
Posts: 1678
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Quote:

Stagger_Lee wrote:
They have all looked like this … could it be technique or just quality?? I ask this cause HA and DD told me abt quality materials, the process and how difficult it can be to get. I couldn't tell u the difference in any of the materials I've used as they all seem fine until this issue ....
Resized Image



That is not a suitable feather for palmering hackle on a wooly bugger. At least not to produce a traditional looking bugger.

Strung saddle hackles usually don't look like that. They usually only have fluff near the base and the rest looks like a softer version of a neck hackle. This is definitely a material issue.

Also since you posted a pick here's a couple more tips:

1. Tie in a fuller tail. You can combine marabou from multiple feathers if needed.

2. Use a thinner diameter chenille wrapped more closely/tightly.

4. If you are not already doing so, strip the last 1/4" or so of fibers off your chenille with your fingers to expose the thread core. Tie in just the core and don't wrap over the bulky chenille. Wrap chenille body as normal once tied in. This process will lead to a neater, more uniform body that is easier to wrap your hackle over.

Kev

Posted on: 2/21 18:03


Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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2012/3/22 8:26
From Couldn't Care Less
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1st Scud

Tried size 18 and 16 to small for me ... gonna need more experience. Think this is a size 12 and it’s what I’ve been tying with and most comfortable.

Do not have dubbing brush which this pattern called for ... am I going to need one?

I was too stingy w/ the wire (noted for future) but the ½ hitch worked great ... did 3 but how many to end the tie?

The dubbing I picked up with HA @ the somerset show seems to work better then the one that came with the kit ... more 'fibery' is the only word I can think of.

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More critiques please, on all fly’s and I have thick skin.

Should I stick with these 3 for a bit considering the materials for the Bugger is giving me issues ... Walts Worm, Al's Rat, and the scud and try to work on them OR do u gents suggest a few others to work on as well?

Also ... read a bunch online abt Charlie Craven's Basic Fly Tying Book ... seems to be a good invest .. what says u gents?

Posted on: 2/21 20:27
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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You don't need a dubbing brush. You can use velcro, or do like I do and use a dubbing needle.

The first fly I was taught to tie was a muskrat nymph.

Since you asked. On your shrimp the tail seems pulled to the backside of the hook (off the top of the shank). That can be remedied by allowing for thread pressure (i.e hold the tail material off the side facing you when tying it in). The body on a shrimp should taper like a cigar (narrow, wider, narrow). I think you had it until you got to the eye. Maybe I'm seeing head cement. That taper can be done with dubbing. I think your last wraps of wire are in the dubbing, which happens. If you keep the dubbing tighter (spin it more on the thread) this will allow the wire to stay on top. Then pull the bottom side dubbing out with the dubbing needle.

You're off to a good start. I agree with staying with larger sized flies. Don't tie small stuff until you get the basics on the larger sizes.

Hopefully that helps.

Posted on: 2/21 21:00
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...
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2006/9/9 17:32
From Gettysburg
Posts: 9282
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Quote:

BrookieChaser wrote:
You're off to a good start. I agree with staying with larger sized flies. Don't tie small stuff until you get the basics on the larger sizes.


Yep - good start. You've got some flies coming together that will catch fish.

Here's my take on the whip finish: fuggetaboutit!

I've tied many thousands of flies and never bother with a whip finish. As others have said, a couple half hitches will do the trick (but you will need to use head cement). Practice the tying basics and don't worry about whip finishing.

Posted on: 2/21 21:39

Edited by Fishidiot on 2014/2/21 22:00:58


Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

Joined:
2012/3/22 8:26
From Couldn't Care Less
Posts: 5683
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Quote:
PennKev Wrote:

Stagger,

Try twisting *very* small amounts of dubbing on the thread at a time. Start with just a tiny wisp , you can always add more to sections of the thread that appear to thin. Also pull your dubbing material apart so that it is not a concentrated clump before you start twisting. Don't worry about covering too long of a section of the thread with dubbing, you can always pull off the excess after you've wrapped the body. Also wax may help you get things to stay together if the dubbing doesn't want to seem to stay tight to the thread. Lastly, twist in only one direction. Don't rub the thread back and forth between your fingers.

Kev


Got it and I def feel I've been using to much dubbing on all so far

Per the underlined .... when I 'spin' the dubbing onto the thread instead of back and forth which I've been doing u want me to just go in one direction or am I missing something?


@FI yep .. did the 1/2 hitch and it was easy and seemed to work so I'll just use that for now. Think that may have been the problem a few weeks ago when I tried to fish w/ my flies .. no whip or 1/2 hitch

Posted on: 2/21 21:43
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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2012/3/22 8:26
From Couldn't Care Less
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Quote:
ebroesicke wrote:

FWIW the al's rat is not a dubbed body fly, just thread. Not sure from your pictures if that is what you did. Al used a heavy monocord as the thread to build the body without having to go over the hook too many times.


Yep on the monocord but I improvised cause I don't have or even know what that is. Per dubbing .. I think that is what they used in the videos I watch?? I watched a few but have been liking this gent in tightlinevideo ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsrDCUttZA4


Quote:


The dubbing at the front should be minimal at best. Someone once told me to pick out the amount of dubbing you think you need and then hold it up in the air and let go. If it falls down quickly you have too much. It should sort of float around in the air. Then use about half of that. Don't worry too much about wax. I use it sometimes, but modern threads hold the dubbing pretty well. Its one of those things you have to keep doing over and over. I think AK Best said you don't really get the hang of a certain fly until you tie like 10 dozen.

Good stuff but Who is AK? .... Tho I remember last week reading that you should do 12 dozen of one pattern b4 u go to the next



Quote:
Your WB hackle gets too thick too quickly, you will only get a few turns until it becomes unusable.

Hand whip finish isn't too hard you just need someone to show you how its done.

Yea it doesn't look to hard but I'm not getting it. I'm sure someone will show me at the jam and the consensus seems to be once u get it , u got it.

Posted on: 2/21 21:53
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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2006/9/11 13:33
From Lehigh Valley
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Relax Stagger - we'll fix all this at the Newbie Jam.

I'll pick up a whip finishing tool for you, and we'll get you up to speed on using it.

Watching JT teaching you how to do this = priceless.

Posted on: 2/21 21:53
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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From Bethlehem, PA
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yes 1 direction, otherwise you are putting it on then taking it off all at once.

some good books:
AK Best: Production Fly Tying ( I know you are not trying to do this, but it is a great book with tons of info)
Dave Hughs: Essential Trout Flies ( Good info and patterns)

Posted on: 2/21 21:58
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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2012/3/22 8:26
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Quote:
HA wrote:

Relax Stagger - we'll fix all this at the Newbie Jam.

I'll pick up a whip finishing tool for you, and we'll get you up to speed on using it.

HA .. uSo much appreciated ... thanks much but I have one. ... this putz just can't seem to figure it out no matter how many time I rewind each and every utube video lol

Quote:
Watching JT teaching you how to do this = priceless.

Don't mess ... lots of 1st with him ...

1st Trout eva w/ JT @ Newbie brush up 2012

1st Valley Creek trout (tho not to hand)

1st trout on a Dry was a beetle he tied (pretty sure but gotta look back) ...

IN JT I TRUST

Posted on: 2/21 21:59
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

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2006/9/9 11:22
From New Castle, PA
Posts: 1678
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Quote:

Stagger_Lee wrote:
More critiques please, on all fly’s and I have thick skin.


Noted.

More importantly though, you need to be the most critical of your work. Does it look like what you are seeing in catalogues and in fly shop bins? Good flies are not going to come overnight but you can get some usable, acceptable flies fairly quickly

Quote:

Do not have dubbing brush which this pattern called for ... am I going to need one?


No, you don't need a special tool. You can pick at it with a needle to free the fibers and avhieve a buggy look. Similiarly, rubbing the hook side of velcro will pick out the fibers. Work it so you get a nice even fuzzy appearance. You can also pull off any overly long, unwanted wild hairs that pop out during this process.

Quote:

..the ½ hitch worked great ... did 3 but how many to end the tie?



Your head is pretty big on that fly. What size thread are you using? Three Half hitches should hold until you find a razor blade to cut that stuff off your hook. Seriously, though three half hitches will do, particularly if you use head cement. But seriously, cut all that off and try again.

Quote:

The dubbing I picked up with HA @ the somerset show seems to work better then the one that came with the kit ... more 'fibery' is the only word I can think of.


You still need to use more of it on this fly and scuds in general. Use the steps I described before and build up a nice heavy cord of dubbing on your thread. If you get a little too much you can pull it off during the picking-out process I described. I would rather have too much dubbing and remove it in the final steps than too little when tying scuds. Also that dubbing looks pretty coarse which is good for scuds and makes for a good buggy leg effect. However, such dubbings don't twist very tight to your thread. It looks like you may have used wax which helps but it also looks like you have as much wax as dubbing on your hook. When using wax, run your thread through it then run your finger down the freshly waxed thread and get all the boogers off.
Finally, When You wrap the dubbing on the hook, keep the wraps tight together. The wraps of dubbed threadshouldn't be like the spiral on a candy cane. Each wrap should be tight against the previous wrap.

Quote:

Resized Image


Kill it. Kill it with fire. (or razor blades)


Quote:

Also ... read a bunch online abt Charlie Craven's Basic Fly Tying Book ... seems to be a good invest .. what says u gents?


There's plenty of good books, but you have a almost limitless source of info on-line. Particularly YOUTUBE. Find some fly tying tutorials for patterns or techniques you like and tie allong with them. Have the video playing on your phone, tablet, or PC as you tie. Try to match what you are doing to what is being done in the video. If it doesn't look right on your fly, pause and go back and redo the step. Repeat until you have the step nailed down and then move on. Kepping stopping and asking yourself questions as you compare your fly to what you are wtching or reading: Are the proportions for this step right? Am I using the right amount of material? Enough or too many thread wraps? Am I selecting the right sized feathers? Am I using materials that will achieve the look I want?

This is about the best way to learn short of having someone there with you.

Posted on: 2/21 22:08


Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

Joined:
2012/3/22 8:26
From Couldn't Care Less
Posts: 5683
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Quote:
ebroesicke wrote:

yes 1 direction, otherwise you are putting it on then taking it off all at once.

some good books:
AK Best: Production Fly Tying ( I know you are not trying to do this, but it is a great book with tons of info)
Dave Hughs: Essential Trout Flies ( Good info and patterns)


Thanks much ebroe ..

looks as if I've been doing it wrong the past few weeks. Per books ... as I wrote I ordered CCraven's Basic Fly Tying which the interwebz speaks highly ... U guys?

Also .. Delta_dg can correct me if I'm wrong but I think he told me many tiers consider "The Fly Tier's Benchside Reference" a must??? Will look into the books u referenced but Craven's book is on it's way.

Posted on: 2/21 22:11
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Re: New Tyer Getting a Little Frustrated ...

Joined:
2012/3/14 6:23
From Lancaster
Posts: 1035
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Take an old worn out toothbrush and cut the worn out bristles down to about 1/4" in length with a sharp razorblade or household scissors (don't use your tying scissors!). Makes an excellent dubbing brush out of something that was going in the trash.

Posted on: 2/21 22:13



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