trouthunting, afishinado and i agree and i think its time we modernenize fly fishing and bring it into the light of day by starting a revolution of sorts, here's what i mean. 1. Tippet and leaders are based on the old draw it through a mandrel 3,4,5,6,7, times ergo the x number following the tippet/leader. We need to list them in pounds and drop the dam x. 2. We need to pretend the old river runs through it movie wasnt made and drop its poser attitude and call things what they are as in ; q. "what are you throwing" a; " a little brown thing about a number 10" that would clear things up quite a bit. Duns,spiners,almost duns but still alive confuse the issue. We need a whole lot of drowned number 10 brown things with green bodys in our fly patterns and I realy dont think the fish care if the eye is up or down. If they do see hooks as we see them, catching a fish would be a once in a lifetime event and we wouldnt have this wonderful forum to while away the hours, now would we ?This is just my humble opinion of course, and my feeble attempt at humor. Fish on!!