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Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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I haven't fished it at all this year. But I used to fish it a lot, as in 2-7 years ago. Based on the responses, I'll offer a guess on the management change, or at least the nature of it.

I'm guessing they flipped or adjusted where the bows and browns are stocked? I'm seeing that people are catching mostly browns below Rebers and mostly bows above. Is that flipped? At least, I know I used to catch my share of browns above Rebers and plenty of bows below.

So I'm guessing they only stocked bows above, and only stocked browns below. Don't remember exactly what it was like, but that's different. And I'm guessing, in the fall stocking, they did the opposite. With an attempt to measure what % of the fish this spring result from the fall stocking vs. spring stocking.

That's ignoring the fish movement issue, though. For instance, a few years back when they put the fingerlings in, I caught A LOT of them between Gring's Mill and the river. >20 per day. Yet, supposedly, they were only stocked in the DH area. So, unless they stocked down there too, those fish moved in mass.

Posted on: 2013/7/23 10:08


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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I'll add that the nearside water temp was in the low 60s and was approaching 70 along the far bank when I left at 11. Must have been cool enough for the fish as they were spread bank to bank.

Posted on: 2013/7/23 11:33


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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The Tulpehocken between Blue Marsh Dam and Rebers Bridge Rd received a 21% increase in the number of trout stocked in spring, 2013 versus spring, 2012. The ratio of rainbows to browns should have been the same both years. Here (this Board) and elsewhere, I could not find any anglers who perceived this increase, which follows my previous remarks that deal with fishing rods being inefficient tools for determining trout abundance, including small to moderate size changes in individual stream stocking rates.

Posted on: 2013/7/26 13:19


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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Mike,

Up by the water plant, I've caught bows only but every other angler caught nothing but browns. I thought the fish were a good size this season.

Posted on: 2013/7/26 17:53
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Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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If fishing rods are a poor tool for measuring fish abundance.. why stock at all? The entire endgame is an increased catch rate.

Not to dismiss the scientific surveys at all, but if increased numbers don't also mean increased catch rates, what is the point? I think informal fishing reports are important even if nearly scientifically valueless. I think that changes in trout populations, even if not individually noticed by the fisherman, amount to a whole increase/decrease of fisherman satisfaction correlated with the population size.

Posted on: 2013/7/27 0:29


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?
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Quote:

Mike wrote:
The Tulpehocken between Blue Marsh Dam and Rebers Bridge Rd received a 21% increase in the number of trout stocked in spring, 2013 versus spring, 2012. The ratio of rainbows to browns should have been the same both years. Here (this Board) and elsewhere, I could not find any anglers who perceived this increase, which follows my previous remarks that deal with fishing rods being inefficient tools for determining trout abundance, including small to moderate size changes in individual stream stocking rates.


I'm not surprised that the addition of a couple of hundred fish stocked in a close to 4 mile area was not detected by anglers on the Tully. It may have added a fish or two to the catch for the day, but I wouldn't expect it to be a bonanza for any angler.

Hopefully the Tully temps stay down enough at the end of the summer for many or most to survive into the fall.

Posted on: 2013/7/27 7:27

Edited by afishinado on 2013/7/27 15:22:13


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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Couple hundred in almost 4 miles?
Really? Thats what this whole things been about?
Michael!

Posted on: 2013/7/27 9:39
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Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?
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Earbuddy chooses the numerical expression that favors their view. Mike said "21% more." Who cares if that is 30 more trout, 300 more trout or 3000 more trout-- it is still 21% more.

Posted on: 2013/7/27 9:58
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Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?
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More is better.


Posted on: 2013/7/27 10:01
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Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?
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Yeah....21% more. why bother.

So if I usually catch ten this year I caught 12. I am not going to boast that I caught alot more trouts. I may not even realize it. only think I am perhaps getting better at hooking trouts. Its not like there were scorecards passed out.

Now if I catch more wild trout than in the past that I may recognize. or more holdover trout in addition to stockies.

So I don't fish the tully but from what I've read on it its become a wide silty ditch. Habitat had dwindled and the stocking had gone from fingerlings to adult stocked trout to increasing the abundance of stocked trout. to I suppose now the reduction from original stocked trout numbers because there was no discernable difference in anglers knowing the difference what we put in there.

So whats the point of the science behind it if we are such fools as anglers. If you want to sell licenses just manage it to our perceptions. if we want fingerlings give us fingerlings. If we believe no stocking works better for wild trout, stop stocking. Its pretty obvious your throwing mud at the wall is having no positive result.

So what will it be now...a different kind of mud, less mud, wetter mud or dryer? We will wait for the mud wall to be put before us and we will try to figure out what the mad scientists did with the mud that we are too stupid to figure out.

Posted on: 2013/7/27 11:14
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Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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Squaretail: It was not literally about a couple of hundred trout; more like three times that added to a two mile stretch during the spring. Remember, the stream is stocked in sections, each being roughly two miles long. The two sections are stocked differently with respect to fall stockings, spring stockings, and species being emphasized. Obviously, the fish can and do move in streams for various reasons, but in many streams rainbows, at least, in large part stay put.

There are a lot of "fish counters" associated with the general trout stocking program and there are many anglers who promote catch and release only. Greater numbers of trout, stocked or wild, perceived or in reality, apparently make a difference to them and they apparently think it makes a difference in their catches. Beyond some threshold number, I question that increased numbers, other than fishing in the equivalent of a hatchery raceway, make for better catches. At some threshold point, I believe skill and timing are the driving forces, not numbers of fish, otherwise; for example, the seventy percent of the opening day anglers who go fishless regardless of stocking rates would have better catches.

This question of mine was certainly not technical in nature. I was curious whether such a stocking rate increase, which in my experience most anglers would favor and, if it were a decrease, many anglers would oppose, could be perceived by anglers in a largely C&R setting. I had thought about looking more deeply and scientifically into this, but ran out of time. (Some years ago we had observed in an actual study that anglers were able to perceive a decreased stocking rate in a heavily harvested put-and-take stream based on angler usage, which varied with the stocking rate. Anglers were not aware ahead of time that the stocking rate had been changed). The proxy for a decrease in the Tully case was the previous year's spring stocking rate. That NO angler who responded here or elsewhere perceived the change from one year to the next in one section of the Tully DH Area was interesting to me.

There is no plan to change the stream's management in response to the anglers' responses, but I do thank those who offered their experiences.

Posted on: 2013/7/29 17:54

Edited by Mike on 2013/7/29 18:15:52
Edited by Mike on 2013/7/29 18:38:52


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?
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Interesting, Mike.

My 2 is that I agree that an increase in the stocking rate, even close to 1000 fish, will not have a noticeable impact on the catch rate of anglers; at least in the long-term. The fish naturally spread out not long after stocking. The 1000+/- extra fish stocked between the stilling basin and Rebers Bridge have dispersed. I would guess it's close to 7 stream miles from the stilling basin to the Gring's Mill dam. That's a lot of water.

By now, the herons, the losses from C&R fishing, the catch and keep areas at both ends and the open to harvest regs in the DH area have thinned the herd.

Like I posted earlier, an increase in stocking rate may add a fish or two to the catch, but would be hardly noticeable to most anglers...which seems to be the case.

Posted on: 2013/7/30 7:53


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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Agreed. I'd guess that 21% more fish, on average, corresponds to about a 21% higher catch rate! At least vs. what we would have done in that season without the extra 21%.

But most of us would not notice a 21% rise in our catch rate over a single season in a single stream. There's too many variables that go into that. If you kept numbers the same, our catch rates vary by more than that from season to season. i.e. high "noise level", which makes identifying signals within very difficult.

So, if I make 5 trips that look like this:

3, 15, 10, 5, 18

When, without the extra 21%, they may have looked like this:

2, 12, 8, 4, 14

Then I likely would not have noticed. But that is about a 21% difference in catch rate. And those are very typical Tully numbers for me. Or they were, as I haven't been there in a while.

Being unable to identify a 21% increase in catch rate does not mean there wasn't one. It just means it gets lost in the noise of all of the other factors which affect catch rates. As I tried to show, catch rates are by no means steady from day to day.

Posted on: 2013/7/30 8:50


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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IF you were to ask me it probably goes un-noticed because the trout spread out and because most of the guys on this board fish flies they 're going to catch fish based on the section that has the most fish in it at the time they are fishing, minus the rate at which they spook fish while wading.
If you were to survey the stream when the water was still cold, maybe sometime in May, you'd probably find the trout fairly spread out and the numbers reduced. A more formal survey of all anglers fishing this section will probably, based on the history of past surveys reveal the same results, that is the increase in the number stockde would go un-noticed.
Perception is everything, if a guy catches 10 fish he's had a great day, and if he's like most anglers, not really counting, he probably also thinks he's caught more than he has.
Rainbows and browns tend to go to habitat that most suits them regardless of whether they are stocked or wild, that is why most epople caught a majority of RT above Rebers Bridge, whereas most caught BT below that point.

Posted on: 2013/7/30 14:31
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Tulpehocken DH Area: Did you notice anything different this spring?

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Chaz,

While trout do move, it is also true in this case that in the spring the stretch below Rebers Bridge down to the covered bridge is stocked most heavily with brown trout and some stockings, especially preseason, are exclusively brown trout. In the fall that stretch receives only rainbow trout and the stocking of brown trout in spring aids those aware of the differential seasonal stockings of the two species to identify fall stocked fish during the early to mid-spring period and develop a feel for whether or not the more colorful fall stocked fish (color develops over the winter) are surviving in reasonable numbers until spring.

Posted on: 2013/8/3 11:27



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