Problems on the Bushkill

[Fredrick]

I just got wind of some problems happening on the bushkill with some sinkholes and a concrete company taking water which is drying up the stream . Anyone else aware on what is going on. It appears that the government is not taking steps to protect this stream .


https://www.facebook.com/bushkillflyfishing/photos/a.201524916866829.1073741829.201514116867909/543243239361660/?type=3

https://www.facebook.com/bushkillflyfishing/posts/543592789326705


https://www.facebook.com/bushkillflyfishing/photos/a.201524916866829.1073741829.201514116867909/544012129284771/?type=3

 

[troutbert]

This problem was discussed several years ago on here. Maybe someone could use the search tool and dredge it up.

 

[codym21]

Fred I heard the same thing today.
Thanks for the links

 

[jifigz]

Sounds like a terrible scenario. I hope to goodness that something can be done to fix that stream. Losing access and/or resources anywhere is a huge problem in today's world.

 

[afishinado]

Here is a thread discussing the same type of incident in 2013 that contains good info about the situation.

Bushkill Dewatering

 

[Zak]

I live very close to the stream and that stretch has been an issue for a decade or more ever since R33 started sinking. How is it even possible to fight all the sink holes up through that stretch. The biggest of which WAS right at the old bridge that was removed there below R33. It probably sucked up 60% of the flow and then another one right above the mouth of the Little BK took another large chunk. Now it sounds like there are more. Is there ever a point where ya just concede the fact that the stream wants to go underground in that area. Is there really any way to truly fight that??? As for the plant.....they suck....always have. Those pumps yo yo all day long every few hours. Eventually they'll cease operation all together. That's inevitable. Hopefully at that point they can work out some sort of gravity situation to dewater the quarry.

 

[RRR]

I used to fish that area quite a bit (from the ballfield up). One day I was wading upstream in about a foot of water. I looked up ahead and saw a large dark circle in the streambed. I approached it carefully and saw that it was almost perfectly round and about 3 feet in diameter. I realized that it was quite deep as I couldn't see the bottom. I got as close as I dared and stuck my flyrod down into the hole. My rod was 7 1/2 ft. long and it went all the way to the cork handle before it touched bottom. This was before I knew about the sink holes in the area. I later told a local about it and he said I had to be crazy to fish up there. I suppose that one of those holes could swallow you up and you might never be found. I haven't been back since.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

That sucks that it's happening again! I love that creek, as much for the fishing as for the fact that it continues to persist through all the nonsense thrown its way. Thanks for sharing. I know that West Valley went dry before. And when those giant apartment complexes were built near the Blue Route and Plymouth Rd (over an old Highway Materials limestone quarry) that the the road sunk and closed a major artery for a long time. Not to be nihilistic, but what can be done about sink holes if the industry is not at fault or old practices were legal and won't be litigated?

 

[Zak]

RRR, you ain't kidding. There have been a few holes up there over the years that, while I'm sure are rather harmless, appear to be green holes to nowhere. It's quite intimidating to walk up past one and imagine being sucked down into the earth. In reality that is a false narrative and 99.9999999% of sinkholes which are merely that......sinks. they can be deep but they aren't bottomless pits. If there were they'd take all the water and not just some. That said, I still got uneasy around there haha. I personally think that stretch of stream I hopeless. You just can't fight sink holes when there are that many that wanna form. The stream wants to go underground in that area and there isn't a darn thing we're gonna be able to do about it.

 

[Zak]

If you wanna see a really terrifying sinkhole that WOULD probably end it for you, google the Bayou Corne sinkhole. Louisianna. here's a link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgYItiehtDM

 

[troutbert]

So some of you think that these problems are not caused by the quarry operations?

If so, what is your alternate hypothesis?

 

[Midge22]

That area is a hotspot (understatement) for sinkholes. google search this map. the title is "Sinkholes and Karst-Related features of Northampton County, Pennsyvania". By W.E. Kochanov, dated 1987.

I do a bunch of work in the area (Geology/Hydrogeology) and I have yet to find a single job site that does not have issues with Karst related features. There isn't anything that can be done to prevent these issues. You can fill them up (cement), sure, but the stream will just find another solution cavity to drain into.

 

[salmonoid]

Nymph-wristed wrote:
That sucks that it's happening again! I love that creek, as much for the fishing as for the fact that it continues to persist through all the nonsense thrown its way. Thanks for sharing. I know that West Valley went dry before. And when those giant apartment complexes were built near the Blue Route and Plymouth Rd (over an old Highway Materials limestone quarry) that the the road sunk and closed a major artery for a long time. Not to be nihilistic, but what can be done about sink holes if the industry is not at fault or old practices were legal and won't be litigated?

Not much. Sink holes, disappearing streams and what appears to be wacky water tables are par for the course for karst topographies. You can't really stop carbonates from dissolving. And as noted, if you fill one hole, another will form.

Most certainly, human modification of the land exacerbates the problem, whether that is through quarrying, which exposes some of the plumbing and can reroute surface water, or development, which generally lowers the water table and possibly sends water moving at lower levels, causing all the clay and dirt that had plugged the holes above to wash away.

Start here:

http://data-dcnr.opendata.arcgis.com/datasets/a8ce961fb81641f4b9e52b828fc33b85_8

Then zoom into an area you are interested in. If there is a lot of red, don't buy a house in that neighborhood

Zak, as far as falling into a green hole, they definitely are not bottomless. But I have been in enough caves where fractures are well developed and dissolved for a high enough distance that if I fell to the bottom, I'd probably have been killed. I've been in rooms in wild caves in PA that are large enough to build a house in and there's always the chance that the surface depression you see is just a thin layer of clay over a thin layer of limestone over a few dozen feet of open space.

 

[JackM]

And so we will allow deep digging in these areas? If we know they exist, why not stop digging?

 

[troutbert]

The pumping down of groundwater promotes the development of sinkholes and stream de-watering. That is well known.

If you Google terms such as "groundwater pumping sinkholes" you will find plenty of info.

Here's a link regarding this Bushkill Creek quarry & sinkhole scenario.

http://www.ei.lehigh.edu/envirosci/enviroissue/sinkholes/stakeholders.html

 

[salmonoid]

JackM wrote:
And so we will allow deep digging in these areas? If we know they exist, why not stop digging?

Because we want to use the limestone that is in the ground? Maybe we need a crushed stone ban? If there was no demand for limestone, there would be no limestone quarries. For the most part, I tend to like driving on paved roads, instead of mud roads.

For every resource that we want to use or extract, there is a consequence for the use or extraction thereof.

 

[troutbert]

Zak wrote:

I personally think that stretch of stream I hopeless. You just can't fight sink holes when there are that many that wanna form. The stream wants to go underground in that area and there isn't a darn thing we're gonna be able to do about it.

When you pump the groundwater way down it makes streams "want" to go underground.

When you stop pumping and the groundwater goes back up to its normal level, it changes the mood of the streams.

 

[Nymph-wristed]

Thanks for the info Midge and salmonoid. It gives a balanced perspective. It's interesting that geologists and hydrologists know not to build there, but they still build there, however... Parc built 398 residential units in seven buildings on an old quarry site in Plymouth Meeting next to 476, and not 6 months later, a road sunk into the ground. Highway is selling off all its old quarry sites, so the building continues.

Plymouth Creek had sinkholes, and press release talks about the remedy and does not mention the recent development that likely sparked it:

http://www.pahouse.com/Bradford/News/?id=66109

 

[NewSal]

salmonoid wrote:

JackM wrote:
And so we will allow deep digging in these areas? If we know they exist, why not stop digging?

Because we want to use the limestone that is in the ground? Maybe we need a crushed stone ban? If there was no demand for limestone, there would be no limestone quarries. For the most part, I tend to like driving on paved roads, instead of mud roads.

For every resource that we want to use or extract, there is a consequence for the use or extraction thereof.

Bingo...some people think mines and quarries can just cease to exist, like we don't need them anymore. Yeah..right. They have to exist somewhere if society wishes to continue as it is. Best thing to do is use best management practices and good sound reclamation plans

 

[JeffK]

Even drinking water withdrawals lower the water table. I am familiar with the Buried Valley Aquifer which occupies a former glacial lake bed in Morris Co. NJ. The town of Morristown, NJ had an early well based public water system which started in the 1880's. Part of management of a well field from the very beginning is regular measurements of water table depth. Therefore, there are good records for about 130 years. Over that time the water table has lowered a little more than 100 ft. This has had enormous (negative) consequences for a number of small tributaries, and the brook trout they contained. In addition, the underground flow of water has been completely altered changing the potential sources of pollution for the well fields. Different recharge areas are in play over the last 100 years.

Even if the cement quarries fill up, demands on water supply can bring about long term lowering of the water table, causing all sortsof hydrological consequences..