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Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2008/8/24 20:26
From Mount Joy, PA
Posts: 2232
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It's showing the Codorus Creek coming out of Lake Marburg as "public" when I know there are stretches that are posted (right along 116 for example). Certainly opens up Pandora's Box with a map like this, but I'll still continue to follow posted signs to keep the peace...

Posted on: 2012/12/9 16:36


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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wgmiller,

Not that I disagree with your stance, I do the same thing. But the thing that irks me is, why does everyone see it as only us who must choose whether to take a risk? Somebody put those signs up, and somebody leaves them there and presumably actually enforces them. Does not that person take just as big of a risk? It is, afterall, illegal to post publicly owned land, and in my view, that's a violation for each person who's been wrongfully turned away.

These declarations are very old. Older than the landowners. The landowners took the FIRST risk by posting it to begin with.

Posted on: 2012/12/9 18:02


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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Just my opinion, the Commonwealth Constitution say the Commonwealth holds all surface waters in perpetuity for the public, I'm paraphrasing, so that makes all water public, I don't know if I would make the challenge, the certainly the Commonwealth could.
Another thing is a quick check of the streams shows many that are on public land.

Posted on: 2012/12/10 9:01
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Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2006/9/11 11:30
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Another view of riparian law based on the Justinian system is that the state holds the water as a public trust but the riparian landowners can control access to the water. One of the basic tenets of the Justinian system is that riparian owners can't harm the water for those upsteam or down and the state acts as the enforcer. However, if the state owns the bottom it seems the public should be able to wade in the stream. Much confusion exists where the property owners own the streambed. But if the state owns the streambed?

Navigation is an ancient privelege, but most other rights - including fishing - have taken a lot of twists and turns over the years and the interpretation varies from state to state. Up to about 30 years ago it seemed that recreation uses of streams were far down the list, but recreational uses, such as canoeing and fishing, seem to be moving up the ladder of importance. For example, in many places only commercial navigation was allowed, but a few cases stating the commercial side of recreational canoeing opened up streams to canoeing and that seems to be a trend.

Posted on: 2012/12/10 10:27


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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DCNR published this list to assert they have the right to grant access to those that drill and extract resources under DCNR land.

Posted on: 2012/12/10 18:29
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There is always time to do more to protect wild trout.


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Jeff, in PA, there is no question regarding the rights of fishermen on navigable waterways. If it is navigable, the state owns the streambed, and you can wade and fish below the high water mark. If it is not navigable, then the landowner owns the streambed, and the state owns the water itself. You can still float it if you want, provided you don't touch bottom. But you cannot fish.

The uncertainty boils down to what is navigable and what isn't, period.

Chaz, that's true, but it's the same standard as we're concerned with as fishermen. If the state asserts that right, that means they're asserting it is navigable. If they are right, then we have the right to fish.

Posted on: 2012/12/10 21:02


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2006/11/2 8:50
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This quote is from the map on the DCNR website:

"NOTE: The waterways identified herein as having publicly-owned streambeds have been compiled by the Commonwealth over time from various sources. Identification is based upon information believed to be reliable and persuasive evidence of such ownership. The identification of a waterway as having a publicly-owned streambed herein is not intended to be a final determination that the waterway is navigable under state or federal law. Moreover, other waterways not identified herein may be navigable under state or federal law, in which case their streambeds would also be publicly-owned."

Posted on: 2012/12/10 21:44


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Yeah, standard disclaimer. Translation:

Here is a list of streams of which we believe we have accumulated enough evidence to win a navigability case in court. Unfortunately, our belief is not law. It is ultimately up to a judge. There are a lot of judges.

Posted on: 2012/12/10 21:57


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2011/5/6 17:55
From Harrisburg
Posts: 460
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Good summary!

Posted on: 2012/12/15 1:15


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2006/9/9 16:08
From Erie Co.
Posts: 504
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Looks to me they are looking for a fight.

Posted on: 2013/1/1 16:56


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2009/5/29 16:32
From Nicholson PA
Posts: 267
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This is a double edged sword.Land owners should have the right to protect their property.If people are around so is their trash.Go to any public area and look for your self.And if it is posted ask permission the most you can to told is no and you will find if they say no its because some jerk made a mess.

Posted on: 2013/1/21 16:12


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13548
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Quote:
Land owners should have the right to protect their property.


Nobody denies this. But what if it's not their property? That's what is at issue here. It's a property dispute, not a dispute over trespass laws.

If navigable, then it is publicly owned. No different than a state forest. If you were on state forest and found posted signs that some random person illegally put up, what would you do?

Posted on: 2013/1/21 21:46


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
Posts: 4469
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Pcray..........i thought it was very good to point out the fact that this makes these properties "fair game" for the Marcellus folks.....GOOD ONE

Posted on: 2013/1/22 6:25


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

Joined:
2009/5/29 16:32
From Nicholson PA
Posts: 267
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Not to be to much of a smart A but NAV.I.ga.ble Sufficently deep or wide to provide passage for vessels that can be steered. To me this is floatable only.I live very near the tunkhannock creek and the meshoppen and float them when ever possible.you can float the tunk almost year round the meshoppen is a different story high water only.Get a yak and i would be more than happy to take you out. JUST TRYING TO SURVIVE ANOTHER DAY IN PARADISE..


Posted on: 2013/1/22 7:55


Re: New list of Public owned streambeds

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2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
Posts: 1944
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melvin - For the purposes of this discussion on whether the streambed is to be considered public, "navigable" refers to whether the stream in question historically had been used as a commerce route (and thus the need to protect that commerce route). To the courts, this is what they must consider in the event of a dispute, not necessarily the Webster's definition. If the courts declare a stream navigable, then the streambed (to the ordinary high water mark) becomes public land, and fair game to standing/sitting/fishing/swimming/whatever, not just floating through. Landowners can still restrict access by posting their land on the banks, and you would be trespassing if you stepped beyond the high water mark, but as long as you stay in the streambed, you could legally pass through the otherwise posted land.

Disclaimer - The courts still have not approved many of the streams on the list referenced in this thread. Wading through posted land on these streams right now would still fall into a gray area within the law and you would risk a trespass violation from the landowner that you would likely have to fight in the courts.

Posted on: 2013/1/22 8:19



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