I Finished the Water Flow Plot for Penns Creek- Sad

[MD_Gene]

The graph and table below it summarize the sad fishing seasons we have had there.

 

[afishinado]

MD_Gene wrote:
The graph and table below it summarize the sad fishing seasons we have had there.

Good graphic. Plus the constant line is at the 600cfs level. 400cfs is a good wading/fishing level for Penns. In addition, the turbidity, aka muddy mess that Penns is famous for doesn't show on the graph which prevents good fishing. It happens often when a t-storms rolls through even when the flow isn't really too high. Penns is truly is an enigma, but we all love it anyway, maybe even more since it so elusive.

 

[MD_Gene]

You are right on all accounts. I was being “generous “ at 600. Conservative you might say. I like it about 450.

 

[Mike]

Switching fishing techniques when it is too difficult to fly fish would give you some more days.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

It's for sure been trying the last couple years for sure have thrown big streamers to combat the higher water we have had with pretty much good success bud high muddy water has been hitting the area alot.

 

[PennKev]

As years go by I care less and less about famous water and chasng hatches. If Penns is shot, that means there's smaller water that likely has good flows and good fishing. My best days of fishing and biggest fish have come from creeks rarely, if ever, discussed on this forum.

That's not to say Penns isn't a great stream, it's just that it seems some get too wrapped up in fishing certain waters that they overlook plenty of good and interesting fishing elsewhere. The past year or more of wet weather has helped a lot of waters IMO. The fish are there and they are healthy.

But yeah, it's been wet lately. That's what we screamed and cried for during drought years. Make the most of it.

 

[jifigz]

PennKev wrote:
As years go by I care less and less about famous water and chasng hatches. If Penns is shot, that means there's smaller water that likely has good flows and good fishing. My best days of fishing and biggest fish have come from creeks rarely, if ever, discussed on this forum.

That's not to say Penns isn't a great stream, it's just that it seems some get too wrapped up in fishing certain waters that they overlook plenty of good and interesting fishing elsewhere. The past year or more of wet weather has helped a lot of waters IMO. The fish are there and they are healthy.

But yeah, it's been wet lately. That's what we screamed and cried for during drought years. Make the most of it.

I probably live closer to Penns than 95% of the members of this forum or more than that and I rarely fish Penns. I also rarely fish Little J or Spring and I am also in close proximity to those streams. I have also taken larger fish more often from other streams never (or rarely) discussed on this forum. But, there is something about those famous streams that just beckons to us. I have friends that live here who seem to always want to hit the Little J or Penns and those guys for some reason never fish Spring. Of those famous more local streams Spring is the one I hit the most because I find myself in state college more often and it is just convenient for a short outing. But the gorgeous scenery of Penns and the abundance of trout and all of the mtn feeders that are brookie streams that flow through that prized stretch of water is busy with anglers and adored for generations for a reason. When I do find myself back there I find some kind of peace and serenity that hits my soul..

 

[jifigz]

On the other debate, man Penns has spent the last 3 years just raging. I don't even remember 2017 being that rainy but I'm horrible with remembering that kind of stuff.

 

[afishinado]

For many, a big part of the allure of fly-fishing is meeting and tying flies to match the hatches. Penns is a bug factory, and on a good day in the spring one can witness a dozen or more different flies hatching or witnessing a spinner fall in a day.

Tyers that are hatch-matchers fill their fly boxes in the off-season with patterns in anticipation of these hatches. It's not just about catching a bunch of fish on any stream. It really sucks for many when the water is up and you don't have a chance to fish during the hatch and have to wait another entire year (or years) to fish the hatch you looked forward to fishing.

 

[franklin]

A number of years ago I was talking with Troutbert at a TU meeting. He theorized that the reason Penns muddied up so much/quickly was due to the number of sinkholes in Penns valley that were in the middle of cultivated fields. Spending a lot of time in Penns Valley the past few years I'm inclined to agree with him.

 

[WILDBROOKIE]

troutbert is a geologist with water emphisise by trade i do believe

 

[troutbert]

WILDBROOKIE wrote:
troutbert is a geologist with water emphisise by trade i do believe

Nope.

 

[troutbert]

franklin wrote:
A number of years ago I was talking with Troutbert at a TU meeting. He theorized that the reason Penns muddied up so much/quickly was due to the number of sinkholes in Penns valley that were in the middle of cultivated fields. Spending a lot of time in Penns Valley the past few years I'm inclined to agree with him.

One day I went to Penns Creek to fish. It was about 3 days after heavy rains. I was hoping that it had cleared enough for good fishing. But it was still brown as chocolate milk, so I didn't fish.

I decided to drive up along the stream to see if I could see if I could see any major sources of sediment coming in.

I checked the tribs as I drove up. All of the tribs were much more clear than Penns. Elk/Pine at Coburn, Muddy Creek, Sinking Creek...

Continuing up above Spring Mills, Penns Creek was still totally muddy. And it was muddy right up to the source, where it comes out of Penns Cave into the dammed up lake just below the cave.

I stopped into the cave office and talked to the people there. They said after heavy rains, the water inside the cave is muddy brown.

So, where could all that mud come from? Sinkholes. So, it's not just streams that need riparian buffers. Sinkholes do too.

This is not the only reason Penns Creek runs muddy of course. But it's part of it.

 

[DaveS]

After reading TB’s reply, I have to wonder; Does the sediment suspended in Penn help enrich its insect community we fly fishers are so goofy over. And if so isn’t it ironic?
Fly fishing loves good irony.

 

[troutbert]

DaveS wrote:
After reading TB’s reply, I have to wonder; Does the sediment suspended in Penn help enrich its insect community we fly fishers are so goofy over.

It's bad all around:

The loss of prime farmland soils.

The elevated levels of fine sediment is harmful to both aquatic insects and trout spawning because where it settles out, it clogs up the streambed substrate (gravel & cobble).

Luckily, in the famous stretches of Penns Creek, the stream cuts through the ridges, so it has enough gradient that the water moves pretty quickly and carries most of the fine sediment through.

It probably causes more harm in the lower gradient sections of Penns Creek. From the source down to Coburn is lower gradient than further down in the special regs areas and down through Weikert. There are some places in there where you are wading in mud.

There is no benefit. The insects do not eat mud.

 

[Swattie87]

If you look at Penns from source to mouth, it really is much more a low gradient, valley, warm water looking stream for most of that length. Certainly both below Weikert, and above Coburn. Those kinds of streams of similar size elsewhere in PA stay muddy for several days, if not close to a week after a good rain, they just don't have significant populations of Trout in them. Penns does because of the limestone in its headwaters, and several of its larger tribs.

Think about a creek like the Conodoguinet or Swatara after a rain for instance. Or the Conestoga River. Good Smallmouth streams of similar size to Penns. They are muddy and unfishable for a good long while after a significant rain.

When you're sitting at Poe Paddy, looking up at the mountains it's easy to forget where all that muddy water coming down Penns is coming from, but Penns only has that mountain, forested look to it for a relatively short stretch of its overall length.

Relatively speaking, streams like Kettle and Pine (similar size to those mentioned above) clear much quicker because of how much of their watershed is forested.

 

[MD_Gene]

Exactly right! I didn't even get to wet a GD dun or coffin fly this year although I was near Penns for 6 days around the hatch

 

[jifigz]

Swattie87 wrote:
If you look at Penns from source to mouth, it really is much more a low gradient, valley, warm water looking stream for most of that length. Certainly both below Weikert, and above Coburn. Those kinds of streams of similar size elsewhere in PA stay muddy for several days, if not close to a week after a good rain, they just don't have significant populations of Trout in them. Penns does because of the limestone in its headwaters, and several of its larger tribs.

Think about a creek like the Conodoguinet or Swatara after a rain for instance. Or the Conestoga River. Good Smallmouth streams of similar size to Penns. They are muddy and unfishable for a good long while after a significant rain.

When you're sitting at Poe Paddy, looking up at the mountains it's easy to forget where all that muddy water coming down Penns is coming from, but Penns only has that mountain, forested look to it for a relatively short stretch of its overall length.

Relatively speaking, streams like Kettle and Pine (similar size to those mentioned above) clear much quicker because of how much of their watershed is forested.

Exactly..99% of Penns flows through agricultural valleys. As do many of our finest trout streams. Fantastic limestone streams (or limestone influenced streams) flos through rich fertile farmland because there is a huge correlation between those limestone streams and wonderful farm land..

 

[melvinp]

Pretty much all the flowing water ways in pa are way up in flow and bug life is taking a beating(Except for deer flys and masquitos)Even the mighty Dobson fly are drowing under the rocks when they come to molt.Farm land sits unplowed because its so wet and still water is brown after any amount of rain.