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Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2019/6/11 7:10
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From PA fish comm site--
" The accepted test of navigability is whether the waters are used, or are susceptible to being used, in their ordinary condition, as highways for commerce. If the water met the navigability test at any point in its history, it remains a legally navigable waterway. There is no single published listing of all the navigable waters in Pennsylvania."

Posted on: 2/12 7:24


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2006/11/10 8:32
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I think that was written before DCNR put out a list.

Posted on: 2/12 7:55


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2011/7/6 12:30
From Charleston WV via Lancaster PA
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Quote:

ryansheehan wrote:
Quote:

The_Sasquatch wrote:

Is Codorus "navigable"?

Don't forget the Tulpehocken. That's the one stream where I was 'chased off', while wading IN the stream-a stream that known by many to be "navigable" (Union Canal!?)

But since I'm not a butthead and didn't want to get into it w/ a land owner who was otherwise a nice guy, I simply apologized, walked around his property, and got back to fishing upstream of his place.


I'm not saying your wrong but the list of rivers deemed navigable by the courts is pretty short and the Tulpehocken isn't on it. Obviously if you told the guy to f*** off and he took you to court it might get added......or not.


Didn't realize there's a list now. When did that happen?

Posted on: 2/13 9:34


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2018/12/24 11:04
From Bechtelsville, Berks County, PA
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PFBC says there isn't a list, but DCNR has published one. It's under stream bed gas leasing. So what does that mean? Is public "public" for all purposes?

Is this info what you are talking about?

https://www.dcnr.pa.gov/Business/Strea ... easing/Pages/default.aspx

http://www.docs.dcnr.pa.gov/cs/groups ... /document/dcnr_009715.pdf


It all comes with this disclaimer on page 6.

NOTE: The waterways identifed herein as having publicly-owned streambeds have been compiled by the Commonwealth over time from various sources. Identification is based upon information believed to be reliable and persuasive evidence of such ownership. The identification of a waterway as having a publicly-owned streambeds herein is not intended to be a final determination that the waterway is navigable under state or federal law. Moreover, other waterways not identified herein may be navigable under state or federal law, in which case their streambeds would also be publicly owned. The Commonwealth reserves the right to add or remove waterways identified as having publicly-owned streambeds as additional information becomes available.

Posted on: 2/13 11:10


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2015/6/1 16:22
From Burke VA
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Pennsylvania courts have deemed the great rivers navigable, that list is the Ohio, Monongahela, Youghiogheny, Allegheny, Susquehanna and its North and West Branches, Juniata, Schuylkill, Lehigh, and Delaware. The Little J was challenged in court and deemed navigable. I believe those are the only rivers that have legal rulings. I'm not saying others aren't it's just not been established in a court. The list that the DCNR has up does not have any legal standing. I am not a lawyer but this is my understanding, anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.

Posted on: 2/13 22:03


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2013/12/7 0:10
From SE Pa
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Check your counties GIS maps! In bucks county you can click on the stream bed and it will tell you if it's privately or publicly owned. These are for streams that have never been used for commerce. I use it a lot and find more then not the stream beds are owned by the local govt. jurisdiction and not the landowners who's parcels butt up against or around it. Now you may not be able to access the stream bed from private property but you may follow the stream bed from public property through bordering private property. Needless to say many of these adjoining parcel owners like to post and claim the stream bed as there own but they would be wrong in any court.

I would imagine that in more rural areas of the state the counties may not have this ability but you never know if you don't check.

Posted on: 2/13 22:57


Re: Codorus heavy posting

Joined:
2018/12/24 11:04
From Bechtelsville, Berks County, PA
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In Berks, they are not so sophisticated but at some places the parcel maps simply list the stream bed and the immediate surrounding area as "STREAM". No ownership is shown for the listing and the other surrounding parcels clearly do not run up to the stream according to the county maps.

At other places the stream runs right through the parcel with the owner listed.

I wonder what the story is on these "un-owned" parcels? Do they belong to the township, county or state? I'm sure some entity has jurisdiction over them.

Also, for example, in Chester County, the French Creek (Trib to the Schuylkill) streambed is listed as publicly owned by DCNR for the full length from the state park to the river. Does this mean it can be fished freely as long as you stick to the creek and stay off private property? Getting to the French Creek is fairly easy in many places.

My kids went to a church camp on the French Creek when they were little and there were always fishermen going through, but I always assumed that the camp had given permission.

The Chester County GIS is different than the others I've look at so didn't figure it out yet to see what it says.

Posted on: 2/14 15:52


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2013/12/7 0:10
From SE Pa
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I would say correct, Unless the DCNR has posted it. If the parcel lines do not contain the creek that it is not part of that parcel. The parcels should also be clearly marked with their dimensions on the maps as well.

Every county is different in what can be accessed electronically and the level of detail. In most cases the parcels will also have a land use code afixed to it somewhere. This code will tell you what the land is or can be used for. The stream in which I spoke of is posted as a wildlife preserve but it's code is for general use. I could not even find a code for a wildlife preserve and there are hundreds of codes.

Posted on: 2/14 18:50


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2010/8/31 3:12
Posts: 307
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Quote:

poopdeck wrote:

If the parcel lines do not contain the creek that it is not part of that parcel. The parcels should also be clearly marked with their dimensions on the maps as well.


I wouldn't be using the county GIS maps to make an argument that you can access any particular stream or property. And regardless of posted dimensions, are you going to walk onto somebody's property and start taking measurements?

On my county's site, you have to acknowledge and check off the following disclaimer to proceed into the site.

"Information shown on these maps are derived from public records that are constantly undergoing change and do not replace a site survey, and is not warranted for content or accuracy. The County does not guarantee the positional or thematic accuracy of the GIS data. The GIS data or cartographic digital files are not a legal representation of any of the features in which it depicts, and disclaims any assumption of the legal status of which it represents. Any implied warranties, including warranties of merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose, shall be expressly excluded."

Bolded emphasis is mine.

I can personally attest to the fact that the lines can be significantly off. Like a lot of farms around here, mine is made up of multiple parcels. On one of those fields, the GIS shows a corner about 50 feet, on both sides of the corner, further into my property than the actual surveyed corner. When you superimpose the satellite view with the supposed property line, it is glaringly obvious.

With that 50 foot error, it could easily miss the entire width of most PA trout streams, let alone a midstream property border.

Posted on: 2/18 8:07


Re: Codorus heavy posting

Joined:
2013/12/7 0:10
From SE Pa
Posts: 872
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Very true. I'm not measuring anything but when it's clear that a stream bed is not part of a parcel then it's crystal Clear the stream bed is not the property of the surrounding parcel owners. You may claim it because it is bordered by your parcels, and this is what some do, however, it is not. We can whole heartedly agree that one cannot and shouldn't access your property to get there. I do not advocate the wanton trespass on others property. If any portion of a parcel line enters the stream bed then I would consider it off limits.

In the case I posted about the map would have to be off by 300 feet for the neighboring parcel owner to claim any portion of the county park property that abuts the creek. This particular land owner is a jerk and his proxy ownership of land purchased with public open space money is far worse then a simple trespasser.

Posted on: 2/19 23:07


Re: Codorus heavy posting

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2019/6/11 7:10
Posts: 246
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Posting other peoples and the publics property just became a whole lot easier with the purple paint thing. I wonder what the fine is if someone posts property that is not theirs? We had a problem at our place with a neighbor creeping his signs over on to our ground in order to make a trail off limits. We do not post and the trail is a way into our woods. I removed his signs and that was that.
I have seen quite a few examples of illegal posting on railroad properties etc. I might have to invest in one of these programs for my phone.

Posted on: 2/20 7:25



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