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Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2006/9/11 19:52
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Maurice, I was speaking of the trout fishing late in the 1800s and early 1900s, long before stocking of catachable size trout became so popular. Troutbert describes the situation very nicely in a later post.

Posted on: 2013/2/21 11:37


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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hard to image the state prelogging, there really were mountain lions back then:

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs ... 20091014/sports/910140326

not sure i would have fished for the brookies with those things around :)

Posted on: 2013/2/21 13:36


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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Interesting 1905 article on the decline of native brook trout in NY, PA here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0MHT ... 0whish%22%20trout&f=false

Nice article about the native brookie, that "gold sprinkled, living arrow of the whitewater."

Discusses deforestation, pollution from paper mill and tanneries, increasing water temps, and parasites as threats to native brookies. Says that remote mountain fishing for brookies may have been better in Pike and Wayne counties in 1905 than 1875. Interesting that not much is said about coal mining?

Posted on: 2013/2/22 5:46

Edited by k-bob on 2013/2/22 6:01:59
Edited by k-bob on 2013/2/22 6:03:14
Edited by k-bob on 2013/2/22 6:05:22
Edited by k-bob on 2013/2/22 6:20:09
Edited by k-bob on 2013/2/22 6:20:37


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
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Quote:

k-bob wrote:
hard to image the state prelogging, there really were mountain lions back then:

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs ... 20091014/sports/910140326

not sure i would have fished for the brookies with those things around :)


Both my grandfathers were born in the 1800s and were avid outdoorsmen in central Pa. One of my grandfathers used to tell me of large piles of hemlock logs three to four feet or more in diameter pile high at tanneries in the Lockhaven area. He said many of the mountain streams, White Deer Creek in particular, ran red with bark from the hemlocks scraped off during the lumbering.

I have some old pictures of that era with some of the large mountains (Paddy Mountain was one) stripped bare. You can see single pines way up on top that were by passed for some reason or another.

For many years after the logging the streams were devoid of trout. It took about twenty years for some streams to re-populate from the few tributaries that ran through areas too rough to log.

I was fortunate that both grandfathers lived to a very old age and I got to benefit from their stories about that period.

I have mentioned in previous threads that I have woodland in the area that was originally my grandfather's. It had been logged about 1895. There is a perfect stream running thorough it that would be perfect for brookies. A mill dam was built downstream before the logging thus preventing the stream from repopulating with brookies after the logging. (I know that there were brookies in there prior to the logging because my grandfather's family was from the area and knew the history of the stream.)

Posted on: 2013/2/22 13:01


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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Franklin your comment that it takes a long time for brookies to reappear after logging fits with something in the article I linked this AM in post #18 above...

This article states that the brookie fishing may have better in 1905 than it had been 30 years earlier in some parts of Pennsylvania, Pike and Wayne counties.


At the end of this 1905 article, someone from Rhode Island recounts how brush was growing along streams and fish were recovering after logging had been finished...

"our sawmills are all gone... the country is growing back up to brush... the streams are covered in brush so that it is all but impossible to get a line in them in places, but they are full of trout..." "the fishermen are getting trout, and big ones..." "we cut off the woods 30 or 40 years ago, but they have grown up again..."


Posted on: 2013/2/22 14:15

Edited by k-bob on 2013/2/22 14:50:11


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2012/10/24 19:22
From Landenberg, PA
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I would think that the best records would be found with those who first studied the native Indians.

I know that is the case in southern Maine. Its hard to imagine now that every single tree you see in CT, RI,MA and southern Nh & ME are all new growth.

A wampanoag Indian told me that in southern new England that there are no trees older than 120 years old.

Its to their records I'd look for photos, stories etc.

Posted on: 2013/3/4 21:48
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Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2009/2/11 13:14
From Lehigh Valley
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GeeBee ,
there is a stand of old growth in Maine I can Pm you info.My fiance',boxer and I forded a river to find it also a pretty good river to fish there.

Posted on: 2013/3/5 4:24


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
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there are quite a few remanants of old growth here in pa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ ... wth_forests#United_States

Posted on: 2013/3/5 6:51


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
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Quote:

geebee wrote:
I would think that the best records would be found with those who first studied the native Indians.

I know that is the case in southern Maine. Its hard to imagine now that every single tree you see in CT, RI,MA and southern Nh & ME are all new growth.

A wampanoag Indian told me that in southern new England that there are no trees older than 120 years old.

Its to their records I'd look for photos, stories etc.


There used to be a zinc mine in center valley that had one mine hole from the 1800s. It was probably 150 feet deep about 100' x 100' square. It had monstrous hemlock logs used to shore up the sides that were 3 to 4 feet in diameter and at least 100 feet long. they must have been 200 feet tall when cut. Back then these would not have been shipped in but were cut within a reasonable distance of the site. Likely off South Mountain. Today this spot lies under Rt 78 near the LLBean store.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 12:26


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2006/9/13 10:18
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Quote:

The_Sasquatch wrote:
Will/could we ever see brookies like that again? Did we ever have brookies like that in PA?

It's open to question, but I'd bet all the limestone streams had big brookies and some of the big freestone streams had big brookies. Whether they were ever more then about 20 inches, is the big question.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 18:55


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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I'm of the firm belief that hatcheries had no role in the recovery of brook trout. I believe that they survived because there were places that weren't defiled by loggers, tanneries and coal mines. That even streams that were trees were removed completly up the the extreme head waters still head some trout.
Those trout survived and brook trout being quite prolific, started reproducing and eventually the trees regrew and the populations would recover to the extent we see brookies today, not because of hatcheries, but despite hatcheries.The Fish Commission did everything in their power to keep trout fishing alive, by stocking foreign fish, but still brookies survived. They just aren't as big as they used to be because they are forced to live in moslty infertile headwater streams.
By 1900 the forests had been cut 3 times in many places, first they cut the pines, then the hemlocks, then the hardwoods that replaced the other 2 species. Audubon writes about how the Poconos were already being cut during the late 1820's. In my local watershed the forest were removed for farming 300 years ago. Wm. Penns did a very good job of attracting people to his new colony.
As for coal mines there is only a small percentage of streams toatly dead because of AMD, the number giver is 2900 miles plus or minus.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 19:16
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Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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If your ever at Leonard Harris overlook in the canyon on pine creek,read the plaque that talks about the natural history on the pine creek valley before the logging boom and try to comprehend the tremendous towering Forrest's of conifers that not only shaded the canyon but the thick layer of the loam built up for centuries on the forest floor held water like a giant cold wet sponge. It is told in stories that pine ran high and cold even in hottesy most arid summers. After every single conifer was taken this loamy base caught fire and destroyed right down to the rock. After this event they called the pine creek valley Pennslyvania desert. I can only dream and wonder what the fishing must have been like.

Posted on: 2013/3/6 22:53


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2006/9/13 10:18
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Phillip Tome talks about catching trout in a weir just below Slate Run in the 1790's in July in his book; "Pioneer Life; Thirsty Years a Hunter." He told some tales in his book, but I believe that in this case it was true. He also mentioned Susquehanna Salmon, which today are walleyes but back then there were no walleyes in the Susquehanna drainage so the had to be either big trout or shad.

There are a lot of times back in the old days they used trout and salmon somewhat interchangeably, but not always. I always wondered how there is a Salmon Creek in the NF when there was never a salmon native to PA?

Posted on: 2013/3/7 14:46
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There is always time to do more to protect wild trout.


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
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Im originally from out west pa . but worked and lived down east for a long time and found lots of good stuff on local brookies in the local libraries. ALL those beautiful limestoners were all big brookie streams from the LeTort n Breeches to believe it or not the Conodogguinnet sp? which was considered the best in the world. This was all prior to the logging and then the mining. Check old newspapers that still exist.......mostly on disk.

Posted on: 2013/3/11 8:52


Re: good article on brookie restoration (w/ image of WVA brookie, big as a largemouth)

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2006/11/2 8:50
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Do you remember from the old newspaper articles how large the brookies were in the limestone streams in the Cumberland Valley?

Posted on: 2013/3/11 12:17



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