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Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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I agree with bikerfish.Well put. GG

Posted on: 2011/12/12 22:44
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Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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Quote:
this goes against the state constitution, which preserves the public estate(state forest land) for natural, scenic, historic and ESTHETIC values.


If this is truly what the state constitution says then I would sue. You have the right to sue the governor for grievences, do it.

Posted on: 2011/12/13 23:29


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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direct quote from state constitution regarding public lands

Natural Resources and the Public Estate
Section 27.
The people have a right to clean air, pure water, and to the preservation of the natural, scenic, historic and esthetic values of the environment. Pennsylvania's public natural resources are the common property of all the people, including generations yet to come. As trustee of these resources, the Commonwealth shall conserve and maintain them for the benefit of all the people.


Posted on: 2011/12/14 7:02


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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Quote:

bikerfish wrote:
direct quote from state constitution regarding public lands

Natural Resources and the Public Estate
Section 27.
The people have a right to clean air, pure water, and to the preservation of the natural, scenic, historic and esthetic values of the environment. Pennsylvania's public natural resources are the common property of all the people, including generations yet to come. As trustee of these resources, the Commonwealth shall conserve and maintain them for the benefit of all the people.



There has been mining, drilling, and timber harvesting on public lands in Pa. for over a hundred years. I would think there is some precedent in law where that section of the constitution has already been used to challenge sale of resources. Since the state auctioned off many gas sites on state forest land the state they probably own the mineral rights at those sites.

Does "conserve and maintain for the benefit of all people" mean that it must remain pristine and untouched or that it can be "managed"? Remember that the definition of the term "conservation" has changed a bit over the years. In first half of the 20th century it was defined more as active management of the resource to be self sustaining. A lot of bridges and dams were built in the name of conservation. If you visit some of the sites of the early pioneers of the conservation movement you find trees planted in rows, etc.

It would be interesting to see if any of our forum legal experts can shed any light on how the phrase in the state Constitution is interpreted.

Posted on: 2011/12/14 7:43


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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I see a difference between "managed", such as limited gas drilling, selective timber harvest, etc. and the scale of marcellus drilling that is going on right now and will only get bigger.
turning state forests into industrial parks is not "forest management".
don't believe me? take a drive in the northern state forests and see for yourself, not a pretty place to be anymore, and it's only going to get worse.
with up to 100,000 planned to be drilled in our state, it would be nice to have a place to go to get away from the
F-ing things. state forests and parks have always been an "escape" from the sights and sounds of civilization. not only will we get to enjoy the sight of well sites, we'll also be treated to compressor stations and pipelines, yep, that's a nice escape.
I'm not a tree hugger, but I CAN see the forest throught the trees, and I can also see the greed that is driving this entire industry and our elected leaders. the entire thing just pisses me off, I feel it's a fight no longer worth fighting. greed will always win. my only hope is that I will be able to get a decent buck for my house when I'm ready to sell, that my water remains good until then, and that a future buyer won't mind living among gas wells so I can get the hell away from it all. you can stay and enjoy your "boom".



Posted on: 2011/12/14 8:42


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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2009/4/4 8:58
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Biker, Franklin doesn't live near the boom. Maybe if he did he would stop being a constant defender of the industry.

Posted on: 2011/12/14 20:41


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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I'm pointing out that since there are no legal challenges that I'm aware of that are seriously challenging the leasing of state lands for drilling it's likely that there is already precedent to allow the state to tap those resources. Of course IANAL!

Keep in mind that we have recently had both a somewhat liberal democratic state administration and a somewhat conservative republican administration involved in the drilling with similar views on drilling on state land. Both administrations agreed on making a large percentage of the land available for drilling. That would indicate to me a consistent understanding of what is legal under the constitution.

Posted on: 2011/12/15 8:33


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)
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What is "legal" is not necessarily what is "right."


Posted on: 2011/12/15 8:56


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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afishinado wrote:
What is "legal" is not necessarily what is "right."



Right is subjective and will always be debated. Again both administrations felt it was "right" enough to move forward.

Posted on: 2011/12/15 9:04


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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could it be that both administrations recieved huge sums of money from the gas industry?

Posted on: 2011/12/15 9:10


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)
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Just ask most of the people that live in the area if it is right. To me, their opinion counts a lot more than those looking at the mess from afar. Probably too much apathy or lack of understanding on their part before the trucks started to roll in. Now it appears too late to stem the tide.

Ay! Oh! Where did you go, Pee-Aye?

Posted on: 2011/12/15 9:21


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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2010/3/10 9:38
From Brookville, PA
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Bikerfish,

Does your bike run on water or something? Do you enjoy your warm shower? It is kind of nice to have lights that turn on around the house. I bet you enjoy having a warm house on those cold winter nights. I would bet there is something made of plastic within reach of you right now. I am all for proper management and protection but I am also all for the jobs and money that the industry is bringing into the state.

Posted on: 2011/12/15 9:28


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)
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Can't see the forest for the trees cuz it's gone....

At some point in the future, when most of the wild areas are developed, dug up, dredged, and dislodged; people will look back at us and say "what was wrong with those people."

Even "dumb" animals know better than to fowl their own nests.

Posted on: 2011/12/15 10:04


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

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2009/4/4 8:58
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Quote:

MHanes wrote:
Bikerfish,

Does your bike run on water or something? Do you enjoy your warm shower? It is kind of nice to have lights that turn on around the house. I bet you enjoy having a warm house on those cold winter nights. I would bet there is something made of plastic within reach of you right now. I am all for proper management and protection but I am also all for the jobs and money that the industry is bringing into the state.



MHanes I think Bikerfish and the rest of us realize the importance of the energy industry but thanks for the reminder What you and some others on here IMO fail to realize is at what cost? You say you are for proper management and protection. Do you really think that is what is happening right now?

Posted on: 2011/12/15 10:30


Re: disheartening at the very least (a rant)

Joined:
2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
Posts: 5040
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Quote:

afishinado wrote:
Can't see the forest for the trees cuz it's gone....

At some point in the future, when most of the wild areas are developed, dug up, dredged, and dislodged; people will look back at us and say "what was wrong with those people."

Even "dumb" animals know better than to fowl their own nests.


I own woodland that was logged in the 1890s and again in the 1990s. My neighbors have also logged so I've gotten a good look at the impacts which in some ways are similar to the drilling. It never looks pretty at the time but in a few years it will recover. It will be a lot like the forests of the NW part of the state where smaller well heads were drilled for years and seem to recede into the landscape.

Posted on: 2011/12/15 11:15



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