Register now on PaFlyFish.com! Login
HOME FORUM BLOG PHOTOS LINKS


Sponsors

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 (2)


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/9/18 16:54
From Oxford, Chester Co., PA
Posts: 574
Offline
ryguyfi: Thanks for sharing what you have recently learned.

I was wondering, did anyone at the forum address the question of exactly where the gas being drilled now in PA is going? Where is the market? Are the companies selling it locally or shipping it overseas?

Posted on: 2010/8/27 14:55


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/9/14 20:03
Posts: 259
Offline
ryguyfi,
Good for you for taking the time to learn about it and consider both sides. Natural gas will primarily displaces coal in electricity generation. Its use as a transportation fuel will be limited. Far and away reducing coal consumption does the most from an environmental standpoint. Half the CO2, no acid rain or ash. And only about 1% the footprint of coal extraction. At current natural gas prices, it is actually no longer economical to mine eastern coal for electricity. Many mines are operating at a loss right now.

Posted on: 2010/8/27 21:08
_________________
That money talks
I won't deny.
I heard it once.
it said, "Goodbye."
Richard Armour


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/9/14 20:03
Posts: 259
Offline
Tups,
Currently all the gas is used in the eastern corridor of the US - the largest natural gas market in the world. There are competing plans afoot to build some pipelines to ship the liquids to refineries in either Canada, Chicago or Texas. The Texas one is the funniest. The want to take an existing pipeline, and reverse the flow!

Last year the US imported about 48% of the natural gas it burned. PA was even worse, importing 75%. But those number are going down, especially in PA.

Posted on: 2010/8/27 21:24
_________________
That money talks
I won't deny.
I heard it once.
it said, "Goodbye."
Richard Armour


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2010/8/30 4:57
From singapore
Posts: 1
Offline
Well I think this is the time for you to challenge yourself. There is so much hardship in life and we have to learn to deal with them gradually. Hope you will overcome this situation soon :D
Be optimistic !!!

Posted on: 2010/8/30 5:30


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6482
Offline
They didn't specifically talk about where it was going. It's still in the infant stages in PA. They did talk about it being reinvested into PA and reducing the "trasportation fee" on homes in PA with natural gas. You look most other places in the country and their fees are much higher. I'm pretty sure alot of it right now is staying here with us.



They estimated approx 10,000 jobs a year will be created for the next 3 years from the production of marcellus shale. Talk about the second coming of the steel industry in PA.

Posted on: 2010/8/30 14:45
_________________
www.risenfly.com




Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/9/14 16:53
From New Castle, PA
Posts: 85
Offline
ryguyfi,

I'm really surprised that you have not seen some information concerning the Marcellus Shale and its problems. While it can bring money and jobs, the environmental and safety facts aren't as well known as the technology of drilling. I attended a meeting in Pittsburgh and wrote this on the Fly Fisherman's Paradise web site:



* Edit post
* Report this post
* Reply with quote

Marcellus Shale Moratorium meeting - Pittsburgh

Postby Jim Kearney on Sat Jul 31, 2010
I thought this an appropriate Forum for this topic since some people had suggested this Forum be used for this topic.

I attended a Marcellus Shale Moratorium meeting on Thursday evening in Pittsburgh. It dealt more with drilling in the City of Pittsburgh (yes, the City) than a statewide topic but I found it very interesting, particularly my discussion with a University of Pittsburgh professor working on the Shale issue. The Lawrenceville section of Pittsburgh has had 60 leases signed already and more than a hundred more in the works and the City of Pittsburgh has over 250 leases signed in all areas. Most leases were presented to home owners by hanging an information packet on a door knob telling the property owner of the untold wealth beneath them. People signed and mailed in leases with that information only! A representative from Cheasepeak Energy was there and told everyone that due to the 1,00o loads of water needed to frack and the logistics of getting through the city, they would not be looking to drill in the City. Of course, the obvious question was "Why are you signing leases?". Well after being pressed by the 250 or so people in attendance, he said with the new technology, they can be up to a mile away and still drill under the Lawrenceville section and recover natural gas and really wouldn't be drilling "in the City". The bulk of the meeting was this kind of banter with the standard "we have never polluted a drinking source, we never have been responsible for water wells blowing up and we strive to be as responsible as possible for our activities, the problems have been human error or unethical contractors who the industry is trying to eliminate.

After the session I spoke with the University prof and it was worth my 90 minute drive to attend. He had spent the day in Danville, PA working with others on Frack Track, a system to follow frack fluids once used, what chemicals used, methane gas identification and other related matters. He is for the moratorium but wants at least five years to do research because as he put it, we don't know enough about any phase of the drilling process. I asked him directly about the dumping of water in old wells as disposal for the fracking fluid. His comment was that; this simply means that the drillers have decided that we will need to worry about this later not today. The drillers own geologists have admitted that this water will work its way back up into the aquifers. They say 100 years, studies in Wyoming have shown less than 10 years, but the bottom line is they do come back up and pollute for the next 100 years. Even the DEP has said that frack fluid from the Clearfield County explosion are still flowing into Little Laurel Run and TDS (salt) is 3 to 5 times higher than one might suspect. This brings up another problem being worked on by the Professors group, a catalog of water quality prior to, during and after fracking to truly see the results. Additional comments concerning the storage or dumping in old wells was that water is already in high demand in PA and other states and the drillers have dumped hundreds of millions of gallons into the ground that are not accessible for use (for better or worse)for years. His concern was less water in the streams means higher levels of bacteria in summer as we all ready know from experience and the resulting fish kills and gaps in fish resources. Another concern was drilling into an old seabed (Marcellus) has its own bacteria and what is coming up with the frack, gas or simply air flows? One politician there at the meeting said that the State is very close to final environmental regulations. The professor told me later, laughingly that "we don't even know what all the problems are yet".

Did you know that fracking has caused 2 earthquakes south of Cleveland? Do you know that several small earthquakes have happened throughout the Marcellus area while doing seismic testing? Do you know that most leases are for "wet" natural gas and should the gas be "dry" once recovered, no royalties are paid, no property needs repaired and most costs are borne by the land owner? This is happening quite frequently in the Northern Tier and will happen more and more as this drilling becomes more prevelant. The advice at this meeting was to have a lawyer present before signing a lease. Road conditions are becoming more and more concern.

The professor basically said that not enough information is available at any level to truly have answers to the Marcellus Shale issue. Obviously the drillers have and did say that regulations are already hindering them and enough regulations are in place to protect people.

All in all I came away from the session even more disturbed by the events that unfolded. It is truly an us against them issue. Sorry for the long post but this only scratched the surface of information. Groups present that were for a moratorum included Pittsburgh Clean Water Action, Pitt Environmental Law Clinic, Three Rivers Coalition, two legislators present and the Pittsburgh Councilman who held the event.

If you have any questions about other things discussed, please respond.

Jim Kearney
The only problem with the Gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

Jim Kearney
Contributing Member

Posts: 140
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008
Location: New Castle, PA (mostly) or Mill Hall, PA

* Private message

Posted on: 2010/9/1 18:02
_________________
The biggest problem with the gene pool is that there is no life guard!


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2009/5/8 23:25
Posts: 313
Offline
Quote:

trout17 wrote:
ryguyfi,

I'm really surprised that you have not seen some information concerning the Marcellus Shale and its problems. While it can bring money and jobs, the environmental and safety facts aren't as well known as the technology of drilling. I attended a meeting in Pittsburgh and wrote this on the Fly Fisherman's Paradise web site:



* Edit post
* Report this post
* Reply with quote

Marcellus Shale Moratorium meeting - Pittsburgh

Postby Jim Kearney on Sat Jul 31, 2010
I thought this an appropriate Forum for this topic since some people had suggested this Forum be used for this topic.

I attended a Marcellus Shale Moratorium meeting on Thursday evening in Pittsburgh. It dealt more with drilling in the City of Pittsburgh (yes, the City) than a statewide topic but I found it very interesting, particularly my discussion with a University of Pittsburgh professor working on the Shale issue. The Lawrenceville section of Pittsburgh has had 60 leases signed already and more than a hundred more in the works and the City of Pittsburgh has over 250 leases signed in all areas. Most leases were presented to home owners by hanging an information packet on a door knob telling the property owner of the untold wealth beneath them. People signed and mailed in leases with that information only! A representative from Cheasepeak Energy was there and told everyone that due to the 1,00o loads of water needed to frack and the logistics of getting through the city, they would not be looking to drill in the City. Of course, the obvious question was "Why are you signing leases?". Well after being pressed by the 250 or so people in attendance, he said with the new technology, they can be up to a mile away and still drill under the Lawrenceville section and recover natural gas and really wouldn't be drilling "in the City". The bulk of the meeting was this kind of banter with the standard "we have never polluted a drinking source, we never have been responsible for water wells blowing up and we strive to be as responsible as possible for our activities, the problems have been human error or unethical contractors who the industry is trying to eliminate.

After the session I spoke with the University prof and it was worth my 90 minute drive to attend. He had spent the day in Danville, PA working with others on Frack Track, a system to follow frack fluids once used, what chemicals used, methane gas identification and other related matters. He is for the moratorium but wants at least five years to do research because as he put it, we don't know enough about any phase of the drilling process. I asked him directly about the dumping of water in old wells as disposal for the fracking fluid. His comment was that; this simply means that the drillers have decided that we will need to worry about this later not today. The drillers own geologists have admitted that this water will work its way back up into the aquifers. They say 100 years, studies in Wyoming have shown less than 10 years, but the bottom line is they do come back up and pollute for the next 100 years. Even the DEP has said that frack fluid from the Clearfield County explosion are still flowing into Little Laurel Run and TDS (salt) is 3 to 5 times higher than one might suspect. This brings up another problem being worked on by the Professors group, a catalog of water quality prior to, during and after fracking to truly see the results. Additional comments concerning the storage or dumping in old wells was that water is already in high demand in PA and other states and the drillers have dumped hundreds of millions of gallons into the ground that are not accessible for use (for better or worse)for years. His concern was less water in the streams means higher levels of bacteria in summer as we all ready know from experience and the resulting fish kills and gaps in fish resources. Another concern was drilling into an old seabed (Marcellus) has its own bacteria and what is coming up with the frack, gas or simply air flows? One politician there at the meeting said that the State is very close to final environmental regulations. The professor told me later, laughingly that "we don't even know what all the problems are yet".

Did you know that fracking has caused 2 earthquakes south of Cleveland? Do you know that several small earthquakes have happened throughout the Marcellus area while doing seismic testing? Do you know that most leases are for "wet" natural gas and should the gas be "dry" once recovered, no royalties are paid, no property needs repaired and most costs are borne by the land owner? This is happening quite frequently in the Northern Tier and will happen more and more as this drilling becomes more prevelant. The advice at this meeting was to have a lawyer present before signing a lease. Road conditions are becoming more and more concern.

The professor basically said that not enough information is available at any level to truly have answers to the Marcellus Shale issue. Obviously the drillers have and did say that regulations are already hindering them and enough regulations are in place to protect people.

All in all I came away from the session even more disturbed by the events that unfolded. It is truly an us against them issue. Sorry for the long post but this only scratched the surface of information. Groups present that were for a moratorum included Pittsburgh Clean Water Action, Pitt Environmental Law Clinic, Three Rivers Coalition, two legislators present and the Pittsburgh Councilman who held the event.

If you have any questions about other things discussed, please respond.

Jim Kearney
The only problem with the Gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

Jim Kearney
Contributing Member

Posts: 140
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008
Location: New Castle, PA (mostly) or Mill Hall, PA

* Private message




Appreciate the time your spending Jim. I believe you were also mentioning that you wrote a letter about drilling withdrawals.

I suspected that this would cause earthquakes, as when they drill for geothermal energy the disturbances can often halt a project. The depths they are drilling appear to be similar. I think this has been the case in Germany.

I believe that everyone should be pushing for moratoriums while at the same time investigation co-generation plants and nuclear power plants.

This gas drilling is most likely heavily subsidized and is yet again hampering nuclear expansion. There was a thread here discussing nuclear and it was very informative. Dig it up if you get a moment. We discussed how 4th generation plants are far removed from a 1st generation plant and the waste that is created by nuclear relative to gas, oil, and coal. We also discussed how further processing will give us even more power. We need concerned sportsmen to start pushing nuclear.

Posted on: 2010/9/1 22:56


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18318
Offline
Lots of good comments. I'll take a different approach other than environmental since that was fairly well covered.

Does it make good financial sense?

The dollar amount of the lease depends on a lot of things, including location. Some areas just more likely to produce better than others, so they are willing to pay more up front.

It appear that a lot of the lease amounts listed above are not per year numbers, either. Can you guys throwing out numbers please verify this?

Gfen, I'm guessing the numbers you gave in the first message are for a 5 year lease. My brother was offered a number in that range for 5 years and I don't think he is all that far from you. Some people are offered 10 and 20 year leases. I on the other hand was offered considerably less for mine, but it was also a 5 year. Over here (Eastern Ohio), the going rate is a lot lower and they had already signed up my neighbors with bigger properties. I checked around at the time. And the going royalty rate is still 12%. But the target play is not marcellus and should not involve horzontal drilling. However, we do have marcellus as well, and there is nothing in the lease papers to keep them from tapping that. Marcellus is just not as thick here. The target shales are actually deeper and they are targeting existing fractures.

One of the things you need to worry about is the term of the lease. I'm betting a lot of these companies are offering huge dollars so they can tie up the property for decades if not forever.
Some of the numbers thrown around sound more like they are actually buying the mineral rights, or are extended term leases that may be for generations. I'd never agree to either.

Another thing to consider is how long to you intend on owning the property.

I would never sign a lease that is open ended, because for all intents and purposes, it is the same as selling the mineral rights. I don't know if they even offer those anymore, but my wife's step father got screwed on one of those by a coal company a long time ago.

It is unlikely that I would ever sell my mineral rights without selling the property, and or sign a long term lease. It would make it harder to sell the property, and if you do sell, you will probably have to pro rate some of that lease money to the new owners if the mineral rights went with the property. The only exception to not selling the mineral rights or a long term lease is if I was being offered way more than the property was worth in the first place. Then who cares if I can't sell the property. I can always give it away when I'm done with it.

I'd consider selling a property while keeping the mineral rights if a buyer was stupid enough to agree to that. But there is no way I would ever buy a piece of property unless the mineral rights came with the property free and clear, and I doubt I am alone on that.

Just a couple more things to consider.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 8:31
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18318
Offline
Quote:

Brownout wrote:

This gas drilling is most likely heavily subsidized and is yet again hampering nuclear expansion.


I've been wondering about that. I got the impression (from the contractor offering the leases) that stimulus money was being used for a lot of this, at least the leases. he didn't actually say that, but I got that impression for some reason.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 8:35
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/9/14 16:53
From New Castle, PA
Posts: 85
Offline
I believe and many scientists believe that a moratorium is needed to study the long term effects of this type of drilling. I have attached an article concerning the practice of disposal in deep wells of frack fluid. It seems that it does work its way back to the surface and much sooner than originally thought. This is the type of information needed to get a grasp of the drilling and what should be done.


http://www.propublica.org/article/epa-c ... acking-825

Jim Kearney

Posted on: 2010/9/2 11:15
_________________
The biggest problem with the gene pool is that there is no life guard!


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
Posts: 19932
Offline
Jim,

The link you posted does not work. I suggest using the "link" icon in the full post editor, and it should work.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 11:33


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6482
Offline
Thanks for all the added info everyone. I'm hopefully meeting with an attorney in the next week to discuss the legal issues and his views on the process.

I did hear some of the things you discussed there trout17. I know they said that no drinking water was contaminated due to the fracking. I can see how they can say that due to a short time frame of them drilling. But they did a comparison to the drills in Texas and they've been drilling there for a while now. I however can see how it could possibly contaminate the water farther down the road. The water they extract has a very high salt content, several times higher than the ocean. And if that doesn't get properly treated could have a very bad effect on drinking water, and all living things in the places it is disbursed. It all interests me and I'm still doing some more research.


Ryan

Posted on: 2010/9/2 11:51
_________________
www.risenfly.com




Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2009/5/29 16:32
From Nicholson PA
Posts: 236
Offline
I have to sya how many of you have seen this first hand,Well im right in the middle of it.Our roads are destoyed,Millions of gallons of water have been removed from local creeks.Truck traffic is incredable,Noise,Lights 24/7.I live in wyoming county right next to the squehanna county line.This is a inpoverd area no money never hase been.Ill i can say being a land owner in pa that has not sighend a lease i will have to sue my niebors when they posion my water.

Posted on: 2010/9/2 16:44


Re: between a rock and a hard place

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
Posts: 7608
Offline
What Troutbert said, but I'll add that never sign anything without a lawyer that knows the ins and outs of the process getting involved. I know that isn't the first thing that people think of when being asked about allowing drilling, but you have too to protect not just your own or your clients interests but the environment.

Posted on: 2010/9/8 18:19
_________________
It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.



« 1 (2)



You can view topic.
You cannot start a new topic.
You cannot reply to posts.
You cannot edit your posts.
You cannot delete your posts.
You cannot add new polls.
You cannot vote in polls.
You cannot attach files to posts.
You cannot post without approval.

[Advanced Search]





Site Content
Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Stay Connected

twitterfeed.com facebook instagram RSS Feed

Sponsors
Polls
Do you keep a fishing journal?
Yes 52% (85)
No 47% (78)
_PL_TOTALVOTES
The poll closed at 2014/8/22 12:38
1 Comment





Copyright 2014 by PaFlyFish.com | Privacy Policy| Provided by Kile Media Group | Design by 7dana.com