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Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2013/5/22 13:00
From Shipp
Posts: 46
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I've already seen the benefits in manufacturing through lower prices for energy (compared to other areas). Having energy close to home reduces costs. Those that need energy shipped to them are at at a competitive disadvantage.

My job at the moment is insourcing into PA factories work that was being done in other states and countries. I know a lot of recently hired welders that are seeing the benefits.

If we build infrastucture to develop gas fired power plants, I expect this to increase our competitiveness.

Posted on: 2013/10/16 15:54


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

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2012/10/24 19:22
From Landenberg, PA
Posts: 1673
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Quote:


If we build infrastucture to develop gas fired power plants, I expect this to increase our competitiveness.


my personal opinion is that will be too slow - utilities are increasingly ordering solar plant - Elon Musk's company Solar City just announced its doubling its business again next year. again.

& Everyone from the USMC , GE, BP through to Wal Mart are buying up solar capabilities to put on their real estate.

the cost savings from being a producer of electricity as well as a consumer are huge - and battery storage technology is only 2-3 years away from long term storage, meaning you can produce power in the summer, store your excess and release it in the Winter.

imho SolarCity will be as big as Exxon Mobil one day.


Posted on: 2013/10/16 16:30


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

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2010/9/1 13:55
From State College PA
Posts: 494
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love the discussion and insights, but this should be in the conservation forum

Posted on: 2013/10/16 18:38


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

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2010/3/9 11:28
From near Hershey, Pa
Posts: 109
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CV: that is great to hear. I am of the opinion that as Americans, we need to make things and it would be nice to see manufacturing growing in PA.

GeeBee: I think that Solar is a great way to reduce the amount of electricity that we need to generate in power plants but I don't think the numbers are there to replace power plants.

What is attractive about gas fired plants is scalability which is a great compliment to other forms of electrical production such as wind turbines and solar which can fluctuate in their generation.

Scalability is just that you can turn on or off additional capacity without loosing much efficiency.

Shock

Posted on: 2013/10/16 18:45


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
Posts: 5002
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Quote:

geebee wrote:
Quote:


If we build infrastucture to develop gas fired power plants, I expect this to increase our competitiveness.


my personal opinion is that will be too slow - utilities are increasingly ordering solar plant - Elon Musk's company Solar City just announced its doubling its business again next year. again.

& Everyone from the USMC , GE, BP through to Wal Mart are buying up solar capabilities to put on their real estate.

the cost savings from being a producer of electricity as well as a consumer are huge - and battery storage technology is only 2-3 years away from long term storage, meaning you can produce power in the summer, store your excess and release it in the Winter.

imho SolarCity will be as big as Exxon Mobil one day.




There are extremely few places where solar power is cost effective. Especially in the NE. The peak to average generating characteristics are one limiting factor that drives up cost. Battery storage further erodes efficiencies requiring even more area coverage for the same power. Solar power is unlikely to ever supply more than a fraction of our power needs. The most likely place for solar power use is as a supplemental power source, especially in the SW US.


Posted on: 2013/10/16 21:42


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
Posts: 6518
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Quote:

Shock wrote:
CV: that is great to hear. I am of the opinion that as Americans, we need to make things and it would be nice to see manufacturing growing in PA.

GeeBee: I think that Solar is a great way to reduce the amount of electricity that we need to generate in power plants but I don't think the numbers are there to replace power plants.

What is attractive about gas fired plants is scalability which is a great compliment to other forms of electrical production such as wind turbines and solar which can fluctuate in their generation.

Scalability is just that you can turn on or off additional capacity without loosing much efficiency.

Shock



The decomposition of solar panels is extremely harmful to the environment. Those fancy curly light bulbs are as well. They make make cheap energy but there are still factors that harm our environment.

Posted on: 2013/10/17 11:08
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Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13595
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geebee,

I fully support solar, but think you're misunderstanding a few things.

Solar does indeed more than double in most years. But doubling a very small number is still a very small number. It is true that many companies are adding solar capabilities, as they should, but it's still a very small fraction of their electricity needs.

Battery storage is improving. 2-3 years from long term storage means 2-3 years from being cost effective. But even when cost effective, it is nowhere near being able to store any significant % of the overall demand.

Just to put it in perspective, solar is well under 1% of the power supply. But the supply must grow too. Solar can double every year for the next 50 years, and it's still nowhere near enough to provide that growth in supply, much less replace any of the aging plants that need to be replaced.

Most realistic estimates say that solar + wind can feasibly reach about 10% of the supply. Meaning, above that, and the non-steady nature means adding more solar+wind doesn't actually reduce the need for more controllable sources like coal, gas, or nuclear. Those same estimates say that, if we really go all out on it (and we should), it'll take nearly a century to get to that point. By which time, the demand will have grown far more than 10%, meaning it is NOT able to reduce the use of fossil fuels, but merely slow the growth of their use.

Bottom line, solar can increase by leaps and bounds and we'll still need more gas, coal, oil, nuclear, etc. The answer to the energy question is "all of the above".

Posted on: 2013/10/17 14:38


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2011/7/24 7:01
From SWPA
Posts: 66
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Once again, the false information of widespread contamination is being thrown around as if it were true. The studies do not show that this is happening PA. Although there is no shortage of biased blogs and websites that would leave you to believe that. I understand how someone that is ignorant of the facts and is from New York or Delaware might come to those conclusions.

Posted on: 2013/10/18 5:24


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2012/10/24 19:22
From Landenberg, PA
Posts: 1673
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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
geebee,

Most realistic estimates say that solar + wind can feasibly reach about 10% of the supply.

Bottom line, solar can increase by leaps and bounds and we'll still need more gas, coal, oil, nuclear, etc. The answer to the energy question is "all of the above".


the same realistic estimates that in the 80's said we'd run out of crude oil by 2001 ?

Solar companies continue to blow away estimates on productivity, battery life, sales, panel durability etc etc - in Germany they are developing a road surface made of solar panels, in Holland they're covering bike lanes in them. Imagine every road/path being a power cable ? ( and ice and snow free)

the 'disruptive' element of Solar on the power industry is that it turns just consumers into net power generators - which many folks just don't get.

I totally agree though that unless we develop something like the German solar roads that Solar will be a minority provider, along with Wind, Hydro, thermodynamic, nuclear and eventually cold fusion, so we need to develop these rather than further depleting our carbon stocks and continuing to tear up and pollute our rural and wilderness areas.


Posted on: 2013/10/24 17:54


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
Posts: 22424
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Gudge, why shill for the industry? Do you believe all those concerned about this industry's activities as they impact the environment are fanatical? I trust them...

as far as I can frack them.

Posted on: 2013/10/24 18:51
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Peace, Tony


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2011/7/24 7:01
From SWPA
Posts: 66
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I am not a shill for the industry. geebee is totally wrong on his statements about widespread pollution and sickness in PA. He is wrong that the largest owner of land in PA is the Bank of Scotland. He is wrong that no one except the gas companies will see benefits from drilling.

let me give you an example of how he is skewing the facts. One of the largest costs associated with drilling is disposal of the drill cuttings, which are ground up rock chips. Farmers used to spread on fields because they are basically sand, shale and limestone. Now there is way to much to just spread on fields but there are companies looking into recycling the material as aggregate into road surfaces etc. But anti drillers the likes of geebee will scream about all of the chemicals, illness, radioactivity, etc and "You can't make roads out of these! What about the health effects?" OH MY...the sky is falling! BUT, he has no problem stating that you can pave a walking trail in Germany with the toxic heavy metals and radioactive cesium that is needed to produce the solar panels. See, even a gas company shill knows how to play their game.

I was born and raised in western PA and have lived in Western PA for all but my time at WVU, I work in this industry. I have regulated this industry, I am a geologist with 38 years experience, I test and sample for pollution, radioactivity daily and we are seeing none of the affects that geebee spouts as truth. I also have dealt with many complainants over the years that will say anything because they are not getting a share of royalties or don't like the trucks or wells, etc. This is the only country where the majority of mineral rights are owned by private ownership, not government. Geebee has every right to not like the drilling process, but he is no different from the rest of the anti drilling elite that spouts innuendo and half truths to scare the general public.
I speak out for the industry because it is so frustrating to see and hear the falsehoods being spread by the likes of the Delaware River Keepers and the rest of the so called "experts".

Posted on: 2013/10/25 5:20


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
Posts: 5002
Offline
Quote:

geebee wrote:
Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
geebee,

Most realistic estimates say that solar + wind can feasibly reach about 10% of the supply.

Bottom line, solar can increase by leaps and bounds and we'll still need more gas, coal, oil, nuclear, etc. The answer to the energy question is "all of the above".


the same realistic estimates that in the 80's said we'd run out of crude oil by 2001 ?

Solar companies continue to blow away estimates on productivity, battery life, sales, panel durability etc etc - in Germany they are developing a road surface made of solar panels, in Holland they're covering bike lanes in them. Imagine every road/path being a power cable ? ( and ice and snow free)

the 'disruptive' element of Solar on the power industry is that it turns just consumers into net power generators - which many folks just don't get.

I totally agree though that unless we develop something like the German solar roads that Solar will be a minority provider, along with Wind, Hydro, thermodynamic, nuclear and eventually cold fusion, so we need to develop these rather than further depleting our carbon stocks and continuing to tear up and pollute our rural and wilderness areas.



What is the average cost per KWH on an annual basis? The cost of equipment and installation needs to be amortized in as well.

How much surface area does a typical home in the NE require to be a net generator over a one year period.
Using batteries to store energy generated by solar or wind substantially increases cost and lowers efficiencies by a significant amount. The costs and complexities are substantial. It doesn't even make sense to store power for nighttime use let alone for winter.

The financial stories you are reading about solar power are prepared by people trying to sell investments into the projects and companies. They are about as trustworthy as a used car salesman on a Carfax commercial.




Posted on: 2013/10/25 7:57


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.
Moderator
Joined:
2006/9/11 8:26
From Chester County
Posts: 9069
Offline
Quote:

franklin wrote:
Quote:

geebee wrote:
Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
geebee,

Most realistic estimates say that solar + wind can feasibly reach about 10% of the supply.

Bottom line, solar can increase by leaps and bounds and we'll still need more gas, coal, oil, nuclear, etc. The answer to the energy question is "all of the above".


the same realistic estimates that in the 80's said we'd run out of crude oil by 2001 ?

Solar companies continue to blow away estimates on productivity, battery life, sales, panel durability etc etc - in Germany they are developing a road surface made of solar panels, in Holland they're covering bike lanes in them. Imagine every road/path being a power cable ? ( and ice and snow free)

the 'disruptive' element of Solar on the power industry is that it turns just consumers into net power generators - which many folks just don't get.

I totally agree though that unless we develop something like the German solar roads that Solar will be a minority provider, along with Wind, Hydro, thermodynamic, nuclear and eventually cold fusion, so we need to develop these rather than further depleting our carbon stocks and continuing to tear up and pollute our rural and wilderness areas.



What is the average cost per KWH on an annual basis? The cost of equipment and installation needs to be amortized in as well.

How much surface area does a typical home in the NE require to be a net generator over a one year period.
Using batteries to store energy generated by solar or wind substantially increases cost and lowers efficiencies by a significant amount. The costs and complexities are substantial. It doesn't even make sense to store power for nighttime use let alone for winter.

The financial stories you are reading about solar power are prepared by people trying to sell investments into the projects and companies. They are about as trustworthy as a used car salesman on a Carfax commercial.


A lot of truth above. I don't believe solar power will be a major source of energy in the future, at least with present technology.

Wind power has a chance of being a fairly significant source of power. Germany produces 10% of their power with wind right now...and climbing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany

Posted on: 2013/10/25 8:05


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
Posts: 4469
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Why is Pennsylvania the only state involved in the deal that DOESN'T charge the companies an extraction tax?

Posted on: 2013/10/26 6:27


Re: We won't see profits from Shale Gas.

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13595
Offline
PA charges an "impact fee", which personally, I like much better than a tax. Unlike a tax, the impact fee doesn't go to the State's general fund. It goes to the entities which incur increased costs due to the cost of drilling.

I'm not saying the amount, nor the distribution is perfect. I don't know enough to comment on that, and am willing to discuss. But in theory, if, say, drilling results in the need to build and fix township roads, then I want to see any "tax" revenue go towards building and fixing township roads. That's better than leaving that work undone, and instead using the money for a non-related political cause of the day.

The general fund still gets a bit of a boost through leases.

Posted on: 2013/10/29 8:27



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