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Re: WIND

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Quote:
But I stand on the position that people working average jobs can not afford to set up things like solar panels or windmills at their home.


I agree with that. But there is nothing a CEO of an energy company could do about it if they wanted to. It's not that they could "care less." It's that if they did switch to renewables, the cost would go way up, and the people working average jobs couldn't afford it.

So long as economy of scale isn't involved (which it doesn't come into play much with renewables), if you can't afford to do it on your own, you can't afford to pay the energy companies to do it either.

Quote:
Again its not that we arent willing to pay the price. The average person just cant afford to pay it. There is a big difference.


No, there is no difference. The vast majority of us could find the money if it were important to us. And we would, if we were faced with losing our energy. We'd give up cable television, internet, cell phones, eating at restaurants, buying that new fly rod, living in the suburbs, etc., to have electricity, heat, and transportation, if we were forced to make that choice. We choose cheap, abundant, dirty energy over expensive, constrained, clean energy. We all have that choice. I could drive a beater instead of my new car, and the difference in money could have bought me some solar panels, which would pay for themselves after some number of years.

We make the choice.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 13:06


Re: WIND

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
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Quote:
No, there is no difference. The vast majority of us could find the money if it were important to us. And we would, if we were faced with losing our energy. We'd give up cable television, internet, cell phones, eating at restaurants, buying that new fly rod, living in the suburbs, etc., to have electricity, heat, and transportation, if we were forced to make that choice. We choose cheap, abundant, dirty energy over expensive, constrained, clean energy. We all have that choice. I could drive a beater instead of my new car, and the difference in money could have bought me some solar panels, which would pay for themselves after some number of years. We make the choice.


Vast majority? I think that is were we have to agree to disagree.
The average income for a US household is somewhere around 50,000 dollars from what I could find. That is with 2 people working. The lowest form of solar energy to have installed I could find was around 10,000 dollars.

By those numbers a house hold would have to spend around 1/2 to 1/5 the total household income just to install.

I do agree with everything you have said pcray. I dont deny anything you have said other than that. But to make it possible, by giving up all those things just to do it, we are giving up living.

In the end your right we make the choice......but its a harder choice for me to make than a multi-billion dollar company.

On a side note:
I have only one fly rod and have been wanting to buy one for years now. I just dont have the money.

However at some point soon in my life I should be receiving a very large inheritance. Then I will buy a house that is stream front property with clean energy capabilities, take trips to montana and yes get a second fly rod.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 13:28
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Re: WIND

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2008/1/31 17:19
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No, you can easily get a loan to cover it, and the monthly payment would be less than we pay for our niceties. In fact, the monthly cost wouldn't be high at all, since a good part of it would be offset by the lower cost of your electric bill. Seriously, we're talking an average cell phone bill here. Go without your cell for the length of the loan, what, 4 years? And your good, after that you have even more disposable income than you started with, since your energy bill is lower.

Why is it that people are willing to pay for smart phones, HD or 3D TV, Blu-Ray players, and super fast internet connections, but they're not willing to pay more for clean energy or an extra few cents for fuel for their cars? It's because thats the priorities they are putting on the products. We talk a good game on clean energy, but just blame the energy companies, when its US who are to blame. Those companies are merely reflecting the choices we are making. They don't choose what to sell you, you choose what you want to buy.

Yes, we would give up some standard of living. It is what it is, renewables cost more. It is no easier for a multi-billion dollar company to make, because they don't make that choice. They're charging YOU for it. The cost to YOU is the same any way you cut it. Would you feel better if instead of making that monthly payment on the panels yourself, the electric company included it on your bill? If the average person were willing to do that, you can bet the electric company would be fine with it.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 13:38


Re: WIND

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Like a good amount of people in this country I lost my job and struggled. Declared bankruptcy and there is no way I could get a loan for it with my credit.

Moreover I live in an apartment and the undertaking of convincing my landlord to change energy to solar would be astronomical.
Especially since they have a signed contact with Ephrata Electric who leases there electric from PPL. I dont have a choice but to use electric from them.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 13:41
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Re: WIND

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2008/1/31 17:19
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Fair enough. I'm not blaming you personally, I'm blaming us collectively. Lots of people put expansions on houses, buy cars, etc. A heck of a lot more than buy solar panels for their roofs.

Seriously, lets say you own a house. You truly have a choice.

1. Give up the cell phone for 3-4 years, get solar panels, and after the 3-4 years I can get the cell phone plus have more disposable income because of lower energy bills.

2. Get the cell phone now.

95% of us are choosing option #2. The energy companies are simply selling what sells.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 13:46


Re: WIND

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You right on there. I know my case here is the exception and not the rule.

I would be willing to bet that 50 percent could make the switch. That then I think would do one of 3 things.

Lower demand and raise supply on current energies...forcing the price to become lower.

Raise the price so those companies could try to keep the same profit margin.

Put them under all together and screw people that are poor.

With the rate of pollution, the devastation environmentally to get these resources and the high cost to everyone....We do need to do something. That I think is plain to see.

Oh and I know you werent blaming me. I thought it was an interesting conversation. One we all should have with someone else and with ourselves.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 13:52
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Re: WIND

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Yes, if people made that switch, you would lower demand. In lowering demand, the energy companies would immediately lower supply. Of course, existing renewables wouldn't be shut down, the cost has already been paid, and the fuel is free! Thus they'd shut down the sources that require fuel/money to run. The existing infrastructure would immediately lean more heavily on hydro, existing nuclear, solar, and wind.

Since wind is being built at an astounding rate thanks to government and private funds, I don't think that would stop. You'd have decreasing demand combined with increasing wind capacity, constantly allowing more coal, oil, and gas plants to go offline. The excess capacity would also greatly ease a transition to electric or perhaps hydrogen cars to replace gasoline.

Yes, the fossil fuel companies would fall on hard time and lots of people would be out of work. But the solar panel manufacturers and wind turbine manufacturers, intallers, etc. would boom. Thats part of the choice we have.

All that has to happen is that people make the choice that they're willing to pay more for energy...

Posted on: 2010/5/19 14:02


Re: WIND

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Haha if I had my way I wouldn't even own a cell phone. My wife makes me have one.

A funny story and maybe its part of the problem.

One Christmas we went to Scranton to visit and exchange gifts with my wifes family. We were actually in Moscow.

My wifes 10 year old cousin got a Ipod, and X-box and a new razor cell phone. She is badly spoiled and I leaned over and said to my wife....what does a 10 year old need a cell phone for?

Well I asked the girl. What are you going to do with that? She said Call her friends. I had to wonder at this point what 10 year olds would talk about that is so important that they need to be in constant contact.

I told her I didnt have my first cell phone until I was 25 and didnt even want it then, but my wife made me get it.

She got wide-eyed and asked....What did you do when you wanted to make a call?

I leaned in and said.........I put a Quarter in a machine.

This is the way we raised our kids. In an instant gratification type society. So it does not surprise me that your probably correct with your comments pcray. Your right, most people would take option 2.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 14:02
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Re: WIND

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2008/1/31 17:19
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Its easy to talk a big game on what we collectively should do. But we blame the big bad companies, as if its their decision, and we do nothing to make that decision ourselves.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 14:08


Re: WIND

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For me it is
Once i have the money I promise ill make the switch. Until then its all I can do. Poor people can't make that switch. My wife and I have never in the 10 years we been together, been on a vacation. I admit I spend a good bit in gas to do the things I love but thats about it. My wife still yells at me sometimes that I never ever buy myself much of anything. I do buy new fly line once a year though

Again I don't deny or disagree with much of anything you have said.
People that have the money, don't switch and I don't know why.

Posted on: 2010/5/19 14:17
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Re: WIND

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2006/9/9 17:18
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Now dang ya and your post edit

Your right I shouldn't blame the companies....I should blame the people. That much you got me to see.

I just need a way to point 500,000 million fingers at once now rather than one

Posted on: 2010/5/19 14:18
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Re: WIND

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2008/1/31 17:19
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It is a little more complicated. We're talking about home energy use here. But that ignores the fact that industry uses as much or more energy than households. Most of us use more energy at work than we do at home. Thus, our employers have to make that decision too. Which means they'll have to pay more, which means their customers have to be willing to pay more. Businesses can't just eat cost and expect not to be replaced by another company who doesn't. Expenditures are less than or equal to revenue.

So what that comes down to, is that if you truly want to be green, you not only have to be willing to pay for more energy, but more for goods and services too. That fly rod would be a few extra bucks.

It still boils down to the consumer who is making the decisions and deciding what's important. If being green is important, the consumer will pay $200 for a fly rod from a clean rod manufacturer rather than $180 from a dirty manufacturer, and the dirty manufacturer will go out of business. If being green isn't important to the consumer, then he'll buy the $180 rod and the clean manufacturer will go out of business. The consumer decides which businesses succeed and which ones fail. The big, bad CEO is merely trying to predict what decision the consumer will make.

It's the same as with buying energy directly, but adds the necessity of knowledge. The consumer must not only place priority on the environment and be willing to show that priority with his wallet, but he also must be knowledgable on what effects his buying decisions are having. All the good intentions in the world don't help a thing if the consumer doesn't have a clue which choice is better for the environment.

We fail that on all fronts. We're not willing to learn the consequences of our decisions. And even if we do know the consequences, we're not willing to avoid them with our wallets. Apathy. Nothing will change until we do. Big business just makes an easy scapegoat...

Posted on: 2010/5/19 14:54


Re: WIND

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2010/1/27 16:05
From cool, dark, damp crevices
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Osprey: I, too, wonder what the creatures would do around a structure like that. Windmills generate infrasonic noise and humans have issues with infrasonic noise at certain levels. The Wind Turbine Syndrome is something turbine producers are familiar with but I have yet to see any significant research published on the topic. There is, however, research on what infrasonic noise does to captive fish...decreases growth rate and creates hormonal deficiencies. Time will tell.

Posted on: 2010/5/20 11:55


Re: WIND

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
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You sound like one of those PETA guys...I spent an entire day on a farm with a guy who let them build them there. They aren't really that noisy, and the farmer doesn't mind them. But them I can tune out the noise my sharkskin line makes when I cast too. I just think it another thing to #OOPS# about. If someone wants to generate electricity using the wind, so what. Not any worse then using the rivers and the warming of waters, extinction of species due to interrupted spawning routes and noise and they are still using it quite efficiently.

Posted on: 2010/5/20 17:00


Re: WIND

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2008/1/31 17:19
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I honestly have no idea about infrasonic noise. But if you're looking for the source with no drawbacks whatsoever, you ain't gonna find it.

Posted on: 2010/5/21 7:17



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