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Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Saw on the news this morning that an estimated 4 million gallons of oil have been released from the well site. This is going to be a VERY long and painful recovery.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 12:43
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Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:

tomgamber wrote:
Quote:

FruitingBodies wrote:
Tomgamber: I concur, rigs don't typically blow up. There's quite a bit of skepticism emanating from this particular event. Space shuttles don't typically blow up either.


Yes but if the shuttle falls from the sky having a shut off valve doesn't help them either...


I think there is too little discussion and too much face in hands head shaking over this event. Three remedies have failed and no progress has been made in controlling this leak.


Right, but a parachute would...which is what the acoustic shut-off is to the rig. But since it is not legally required it wasn't installed.....I'm guessing it digs into their profits and we can't have that. They'd rather take huge risks with OUR environment for THEIR profits...who knew?

I feel the opposite..there is to much discussion and not enough regulation of required safety measures or repercussions for this kind of catastrophe. The fines will amount to a slap on the wrist and mark my words in the end the tax payer will end up paying for the clean-up. Action is what is needed not discussion.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 14:34


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:


FruitingBodies wrote:
Typically there are three systems on rigs that have the ability to "shut down" spill situations.




Typically they don't BLOW UP either.

So regardless of what systems may have been in place they would not have functioned.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 16:13


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:

tomgamber wrote:
Quote:

Selfinflictedfunk wrote:


Right, but a parachute would...which is what the acoustic shut-off is to the rig. But since it is not legally required it wasn't installed.....I'm guessing it digs into their profits and we can't have that. They'd rather take huge risks with OUR environment for THEIR profits...who knew?


If the shuttle bows up the parachute isn't going to work now is it?



Quote:
I feel the opposite..there is to much discussion and not enough regulation of required safety measures or repercussions for this kind of catastrophe. The fines will amount to a slap on the wrist and mark my words in the end the tax payer will end up paying for the clean-up. Action is what is needed not discussion.


Really, well get down there and fix it. I was referring to discussion on this site. We yap about hockey and such (which I don't have any problem with) but no one apparently knows enough about the situation as we do with the Gas drilling and such. Blurting hollow rhetoric like "we need action" just makes you sound like a politician.

BTW here's is the latest..."wasn't me"...
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10610550


Well then Thank You Mr. Obvious.......we couldn't have figured out that rigs don't typically blow up? Or that a blown up shuttle couldn't use a parachute? When I made the parachute comment it was to you referring to them "falling from the sky" not blowing up. Which in this case even if a rig, that doesn't typically blow up does, there are safe guards that could have been in place...ie...acoustic shut offs to prevent this kind of damage to the environment.

So you have a problem with discussions that might possibly educate us all on a subject? How is what I'm saying hollow rhetoric? Action needs to be taken to be sure these safe guards are in place...period. If the technology is there and can prevent this then it should be mandatory on every rig.

Or how about this. Someone started the discussion and gave a "typical" set-up and they were told this wasn't typical by you. When they gave an example of other non-typical things they were still told that the safe guards wouldn't work....so you seem to have it all figured out...maybe we could car pool down to fix the problem together.

Care to comment about how these major corporations that are just to big to fail are raping our wallets and environment at every turn all in the name of profits?

Posted on: 2010/5/11 16:39


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Right, but a parachute would...which is what the acoustic shut-off is to the rig. But since it is not legally required it wasn't installed.....I'm guessing it digs into their profits and we can't have that. They'd rather take huge risks with OUR environment for THEIR profits...who knew?


That claim shows a misunderstanding of how business works. It is absolutely not as clear-cut as "cheap out on protections, make more money."

For profit reasons, they are not going to voluntarily install them when no other oil companies are. Since nobody else is doing it, the prices would have to remain low, and they'd have to take a lesser profit.

But if all companies are forced to do such installations, it would not hurt BP's profits in the slightest, it might actually increase them. All companies would be able to raise their prices and pass the cost on to the consumer, and they would keep the same margin. Since the margin in the oil industry is typically % based, higher gas prices tend to mean more profit!

So no, as long as all companies must play by the same rules, I'd expect oil companies to be in favor of such regulations. But absent the regulations, they'd absolutely not take it upon themselves to do it voluntarily.

The problem of course, is that we are only 1 country and oil is a global trade. If we made the regulations, and other countries didn't, then we'd be shifting the competitive balance. But of course, the same companies operate everywhere, so your just shifting where their focus is.

Yeah, I support increased safety regulations, and this disaster is a nice launching pad to make it happen. But its something you have to get other countries on board with as well, it'd be a bad move to do it unilaterally.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 16:40


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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P.S. A parachute would do nothing for a falling space shuttle either.

1. To safely land an object of that weight, the parachute better be ginormous.

2. Do you have any idea what deploying a huge parachute at mach 10 would do to the human body?

Posted on: 2010/5/11 16:47


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
Quote:
Right, but a parachute would...which is what the acoustic shut-off is to the rig. But since it is not legally required it wasn't installed.....I'm guessing it digs into their profits and we can't have that. They'd rather take huge risks with OUR environment for THEIR profits...who knew?


That claim shows a misunderstanding of how business works. It is absolutely not as clear-cut as "cheap out on protections, make more money."

For profit reasons, they are not going to voluntarily install them when no other oil companies are. Since nobody else is doing it, the prices would have to remain low, and they'd have to take a lesser profit.

But if all companies are forced to do such installations, it would not hurt BP's profits in the slightest, it might actually increase them. All companies would be able to raise their prices and pass the cost on to the consumer, and they would keep the same margin. Since the margin in the oil industry is typically % based, higher gas prices tend to mean more profit!

So no, as long as all companies must play by the same rules, I'd expect oil companies to be in favor of such regulations. But absent the regulations, they'd absolutely not take it upon themselves to do it voluntarily.

The problem of course, is that we are only 1 country and oil is a global trade. If we made the regulations, and other countries didn't, then we'd be shifting the competitive balance. But of course, the same companies operate everywhere, so your just shifting where their focus is.

Yeah, I support increased safety regulations, and this disaster is a nice launching pad to make it happen. But its something you have to get other countries on board with as well, it'd be a bad move to do it unilaterally.


I completely agree. Also, I have the understanding of how business works. For once wouldn't you like to see one of these companies go above and beyond without having to be force (regulated) too?

You do realize you made my point, right. "they'd have to take a lesser profit." it's not about what they know is right...it's about profit.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 16:48


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
P.S. A parachute would do nothing for a falling space shuttle either.

1. To safely land an object of that weight, the parachute better be ginormous.

2. Do you have any idea what deploying a huge parachute at mach 10 would do to the human body?


Are you seriously going that literal on me?

P.S. I worked for NASA.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 16:49


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:


FruitingBodies wrote:
Typically there are three systems on rigs that have the ability to "shut down" spill situations.




Typically they don't BLOW UP either.

So regardless of what systems may have been in place they would not have functioned.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 16:53


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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hehe, cool. Sorry about the literality, some people truly are pretty misinformed on that kind of stuff.

Nah, I don't think any companies will do it on their own. Why should they? Why should BP do it if nobody else did? It's not like their rigs are more dangerous than others, they just got unlucky. They shouldn't play by any different rules than anyone else.

But yeah, its the function of government to decide what regulations need to be in place, they are the rulemakers. It's always a balancing act. If we enact regulations and noone else does, then the companies move away and drill somewhere else, we lose jobs and import even more oil. If everyone enacts regulations, then great! But how strict? If you make a device to protect against every possible thing that could theoretically go wrong, gas will be $20 a gallon, and something we didn't think of will someday go wrong. I suppose I don't have to tell you that, you worked for NASA, where you do enact every safety device, everything is ridiculously expensive, and things still go wrong on occasion!

In the light of what happened, I think its reasonable to re-evaluate, on a global scale, what regulations are in place and perhaps strengthen them somewhat. But the bottom line is things like this will happen, its part of the cost of using oil, and we need to understand that. Of course, using gas, nuclear, wind, solar, geothermal, etc. have environmental issues that must be weighed as well.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 17:01


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
hehe, cool. Sorry about the literality, some people truly are pretty misinformed on that kind of stuff.

Nah, I don't think any companies will do it on their own. Why should they? Why should BP do it if nobody else did? It's not like their rigs are more dangerous than others, they just got unlucky. They shouldn't play by any different rules than anyone else.

But yeah, its the function of government to decide what regulations need to be in place, they are the rulemakers. It's always a balancing act. If we enact regulations and noone else does, then the companies move away and drill somewhere else, we lose jobs and import even more oil. If everyone enacts regulations, then great! But how strict? If you make a device to protect against every possible thing that could theoretically go wrong, gas will be $20 a gallon, and something we didn't think of will someday go wrong. I suppose I don't have to tell you that, you worked for NASA, where you do enact every safety device, everything is ridiculously expensive, and things still go wrong on occasion!

In the light of what happened, I think its reasonable to re-evaluate, on a global scale, what regulations are in place and perhaps strengthen them somewhat. But the bottom line is things like this will happen, its part of the cost of using oil, and we need to understand that. Of course, using gas, nuclear, wind, solar, geothermal, etc. have environmental issues that must be weighed as well.


I completely agree with you.

But I think it's high time that some company, any company, start to be more responsible, even if that means profits be damned a little. And I'm not referring to your typical small business trying to do right by the environment.....I'm talking about these major "to big to fail" corporations getting some inclining of morals towards something other than the all mighty dollar and their share holders. I for one would pay more for a product if I knew that the company is doing all it can to safe guard against something like this.....especially one that could have this sort of impact on the environment.

Not only was BP not using every safe guard possible but I believe their permits to drill were for water not as deep as they were in.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 18:18


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:

tomgamber wrote:
Quote:

Selfinflictedfunk wrote:
Quote:

tomgamber wrote:
Quote:

Selfinflictedfunk wrote:


Right, but a parachute would...which is what the acoustic shut-off is to the rig. But since it is not legally required it wasn't installed.....I'm guessing it digs into their profits and we can't have that. They'd rather take huge risks with OUR environment for THEIR profits...who knew?


If the shuttle bows up the parachute isn't going to work now is it?



Quote:
I feel the opposite..there is to much discussion and not enough regulation of required safety measures or repercussions for this kind of catastrophe. The fines will amount to a slap on the wrist and mark my words in the end the tax payer will end up paying for the clean-up. Action is what is needed not discussion.


Really, well get down there and fix it. I was referring to discussion on this site. We yap about hockey and such (which I don't have any problem with) but no one apparently knows enough about the situation as we do with the Gas drilling and such. Blurting hollow rhetoric like "we need action" just makes you sound like a politician.

BTW here's is the latest..."wasn't me"...
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=10610550


Well then Thank You Mr. Obvious.......we couldn't have figured out that rigs don't typically blow up? Or that a blown up shuttle couldn't use a parachute? When I made the parachute comment it was to you referring to them "falling from the sky" not blowing up. Which in this case even if a rig, that doesn't typically blow up does, there are safe guards that could have been in place...ie...acoustic shut offs to prevent this kind of damage to the environment.

So you have a problem with discussions that might possibly educate us all on a subject? How is what I'm saying hollow rhetoric? Action needs to be taken to be sure these safe guards are in place...period. If the technology is there and can prevent this then it should be mandatory on every rig.

Or how about this. Someone started the discussion and gave a "typical" set-up and they were told this wasn't typical by you. When they gave an example of other non-typical things they were still told that the safe guards wouldn't work....so you seem to have it all figured out...maybe we could car pool down to fix the problem together.

Care to comment about how these major corporations that are just to big to fail are raping our wallets and environment at every turn all in the name of profits?


Look dude, No one has been in here in days...I suggested that was too long based on the size of this spill. You said discussion was not needed. You suggested action but not what action was needed. You claim the corporations are raping us but give no examples. If I knew all this information I wouldn't feel any need to discuss it. You seem to have all the answers. Enlighten me. Its why I said discussion was needed. Yet you haven't provided a single bit of information. Just Monday morning quarterbacking. I can get that from the newspaper. thanks. We can continue to argue proper discussion patterns or someone can post some information. I know too little about whats going on and how to stop it. You say the fail safes weren't installed. Ok, (actually knew that part) but regardless, too late to do anything about that on this rig. How do they stop the flow of oil?


Dude, I completely agree with you and I believe a conversation was occurring when you ran in screaming like your panties were on fire about how rigs don't typically "BLOW UP". (What an absurd obvious statement...but I'm the one offering you regurgitated news stories?)
So that person agreed with you and stated how other things don't typically act and again you responded to them like they were somehow wrong. So now it's your turn to carry the conversation because others have tried but you trumped them so the stage is yours.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 18:29


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13624
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Quote:


FruitingBodies wrote:
Typically there are three systems on rigs that have the ability to "shut down" spill situations.




Typically they don't BLOW UP either.

So regardless of what systems may have been in place they would not have functioned.

Didn't think I;d have to explain it to you. So you can whine about regulations or fail safes that may or may not have been installed. They would not have helped as they would have been in little itty bitty bits. The question is why did it blow up? No one seems to know. If you have any information that would be helpful in understanding that I would love to hear it.

Other wise your overly maternal concern with the condition of my underwear is really speculation as this is only text and without those cute little smiley's you have no way of knowing how I said that...actually I was laughing because it was in response to a comment that almost as stupid as the one about the space shuttle.

The thread is yours...I am no longer interested.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 19:12


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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Quote:

tomgamber wrote:
Quote:


FruitingBodies wrote:
Typically there are three systems on rigs that have the ability to "shut down" spill situations.




Typically they don't BLOW UP either.

So regardless of what systems may have been in place they would not have functioned.

Didn't think I;d have to explain it to you. So you can whine about regulations or fail safes that may or may not have been installed. They would not have helped as they would have been in little itty bitty bits. The question is why did it blow up? No one seems to know. If you have any information that would be helpful in understanding that I would love to hear it.

Other wise your overly maternal concern with the condition of my underwear is really speculation as this is only text and without those cute little smiley's you have no way of knowing how I said that...actually I was laughing because it was in response to a comment that almost as stupid as the one about the space shuttle.

The thread is yours...I am no longer interested.


So you have no understanding that the typical third system wasn't in place. And that is the system that can be triggered remotely and is located at the bottom near the ocean floor unharmed by the BLOWN UP rig. I didn't think I'd have to explain that to you.

Link to a picture

And no similes needed you used CAPS...which infers yelling.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 19:19


Re: Oil Spill in the Gulf.

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quoted from the article I linked in the previous post....

"Nevertheless, regulators in two major oil-producing countries, Norway and Brazil, in effect require them. Norway has had acoustic triggers on almost every offshore rig since 1993.

The U.S. considered requiring a remote-controlled shut-off mechanism several years ago, but drilling companies questioned its cost and effectiveness, according to the agency overseeing offshore drilling. The agency, the Interior Department's Minerals Management Service, says it decided the remote device wasn't needed because rigs had other back-up plans to cut off a well.

The U.K., where BP is headquartered, doesn't require the use of acoustic triggers."

Seems some countries are doing it....but again not here or in the UK where profits rule.

Posted on: 2010/5/11 19:22



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