Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

[flyfishinx2]

Some friends of mine made a trip to Worlds End and told me that they weren't allowed to get near the Sock , apparently there was some type of mining spill/accident. PA DEP is apparently keeping it hush hush , wouldn't want this in the news now would we?

 

[1wt]

That stinks!

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear flyfish,

Doesn't sound all that serious to me? If I see anything new on this I'll post it.

http://www.sungazette.com/page/content.detail/id/582839/Sludge-discharged-into-creek-during-pipeline-construction.html?nav=5014

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[Heritage-Angler]

This is some funny looking mud.....


Loyalsock

 

[JakesLeakyWaders]

Yeah that's messed up. This is what the stream looked like when I was there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIbAngQfhW8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Makes me sick to my stomach.

Not a big deal ?

This is exactly the kind of $h@t that should be on CNN.

 

[FarmerDave]

OMG, the sky has fallen!

How is anyone going to take us serious when we call this a drilling accident when all it was is construction silt.

And H-A, No disrespect intended, but it doesn't look all that funny or unusual to me. Not good, but not funny or unusual.

It's the color of any low and nearly dry creek when you stir it up. It looks like the crick that flows through my property when it is very low and gets stirred up a little and it is normally gin clear.

With water that low and likely a little green from being slow and warm, it doesn't take much to cloud it up.

I'm sorry, but I don't see this as a huge deal. A single idiot on a 3 wheeler could cause that much.

The construction company should be cited for not controlling runoff, but contrary to the guy on the video, this was not destruction or systematic.

P.S. I changed the title on my response to at least match what apparently happened.

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear Board,

Bentonite is a naturally occuring clay that is grayish-green in color. Drop a handfull in a bucket of water and that is exactly what it will look like. With no flow it's not going to flush quickly but like the Farmer said it's not a big deal.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[The_Sasquatch]

Dear Tim Murphy,

But it won't churn up anti-fracking emotions like putting, "The destruction of a stream!" as a headline will. After all, the person filming is obviously qualified to make such a judgement.

@ss in yo' face,
The Squatch

 

[JakesLeakyWaders]

Dear Timbo,

It was low when I was there. And that's a helluva lot more than a drop in a bucket in my own humble opinion.

You can't even see an inch into the water where normally you can see down 10-15 feet in the swimming area at the park. The stream does not even contain silt in that the area of Worlds End. Its all hard bottom as you can clearly see in my short video. The video posted by H.A. looks pretty dramatic to me. Hopefully you know what you are talking about.

Concerned,

Jake

 

[The_Sasquatch]

Concern is one thing, a good thing in my opinion. Its different than alarmism, no? I'm not accusing you of that, of course. I'm thinking more of the video title, for example.

 

[flyfishinx2]

I have to admit that I'm not as concerned as I was yesterday before I knew some of the facts , but this is a lot more than just a little sludge in a stream that typically has no soot in it.

The fact that this wasn't reported to the news by state officials and that the park employee lied and said this "no advisories were issued to swimmers or campers at the park" is very concerning because I have 4 witnesses that would testify otherwise.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

I know nothing about this creek or its current condition. However, silt/clay like this is harmful to trout spawning and macro habitat. There may be no short term problems (fish kill) but if such events are allowed to occur, the long term health of the stream could be impacted. So while it might not be 1000s of gallons of fracking water, if such events are not kept in check the fishery would decline.

 

[GreenWeenie]

Consistency? Where’s the consistency in these arguments?

It’s a tragedy, the world must know about it, and heads must roll when a contractor performing something unpopular like natural gas fracking has an accident not even associated with gas fracking (it was digging a trench for a pipeline) and gets some silt in a heavily stocked stream – national tragedy - yet nobody seems to care when TU puts heavy equipment in a world class wild trout stream for 4 weeks straight to redesign it in order to make it more easily fishable for the masses and in the process silts the freaken crap out of it downstream destroying lots of habitat and causing fish kills – that’s progress and habitat improvement.

So I guess there’s good silt and bad silt.

 

[nymphingmaniac]

I do not wish to inflame you further Geenweenie, but I must stick up for organizations like TU, and especially the LJRA, who do such work on streams. Every stream improvement I've been to, especially those of the LJRA, is not geared toward making a river easily fishable by the masses. It is about preventing riverbank erosion and preventing the production of more silt/mud during mid- to high water events. As secondary goal is to improve habitat near the site, but it is far from the motivation you hinted at in your post. The main goal of the work is to improve not just the immediate habitat, but that downstream which receives the silt/mud. All work needs to be justified beyond making fishing easy to get the permits and funding.
You may know of other examples where the work is done only to make fishing easier, but that is not my experience in centre and blair counties. Perhaps you can list the examples where TU (or other organizations) stream improvements led to significant fish kills and a decline in the downstream fisheries.

 

[sandfly]

welcome to my world this crap happens everyday, and no one reports it. there is a gag order on doctors, papers, and news channels up here..only 10 % of what is happening is getting out to you folks. the pipes when they are going under roads and streams are coated in a mud/mineral oil to slide better. And you say this mud is ok !!! same thing has happened to a small wild stream a trib to pine and no news got out, you should smell the stuff.....heavy in a oil/petreolum smell, but thats ok its mud thats what they keep saying..

 

[salmonoid]

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Board,

Bentonite is a naturally occuring clay that is grayish-green in color. Drop a handfull in a bucket of water and that is exactly what it will look like. With no flow it's not going to flush quickly but like the Farmer said it's not a big deal.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

You're absolutely correct, and as an example, take a look at the Erie tribs after a good rain. That green color they pick up, which we anglers use to judge for optimal steelhead conditions, is the same sort of issue, i.e. suspended clay.

However, the big difference is you don't normally see suspended clay in the Loyalsock like that. And if there is bentonite there, what other compounds or traces of chemicals are also present?

The sky probably isn't completely falling in Sullivan County, but its also not a non-issue...

 

[jdaddy]

sandfly wrote:
there is a gag order on doctors, papers, and news channels up here..only 10 % of what is happening is getting out to you folks.

Would love to see a credible source on this statement.

 

[sandfly]

it was on wetm4 in elmira.
http://www.marcellus-shale.us/Act13-of-2012_HB1950.htm

 

[Maurice]

From the article it indicates that eh BMP's failed. The Best Management Practice for crossing a stream with a trench would be a pump around where a coffer dam is built upstream and one downstream. Clear source water is then pumped to below the lower. coffer dam. Water inbetween the dams is pumped into a filter bag.

I just finished a stream project where improvements were made to grade and bed elevation so we did quite a bit of excavating in the bed and banks. I had coffer dams and 3" pumps going for two months straight as part of the E&S controls mandated by the DEP.

I am absolutely sure that if this project were to be considered by he DEP through permitting that a pump around would be mandated through the Conservation district. While the DEP is not responsible for E&C controls they do recognize the plans and point out short comings. But ultimately its a conservation district requirement.

I am curious whether the BMP was not used, required or failed as was stated.

And that type of clay/mud infused into a stream with low flow is not good. Its not like a high water event where the turbidity is diluted, low flow creates a slurry of this suspended material.

It is clearly a violation of erosion and sediment controls through project permitting with the DEP. Fines should be assessed and the situation corrected.

My guess is there were no permits and the company just did it. Quick, in and out, nobody will notice.

 

[troutbert]

I have some technical questions, for the constructions experts on the board.

Why would they be using bentonite in a "open trench cut across the stream." I know they use that when tunneling under streams, for lubrication, but if they're doing a trench cut, what would the bentonite be used for?

Second question. In a trench cut across a stream like Loyalsock Creek, how deep do they cut the trench? Do they just dig down into the streambed cobble and gravel? Or do they dig down deeper, cutting down into the underlying bedrock?

In many cases on the stream in that region, the streambed consists of a pretty shallow layer of loose material (cobble and gravel) lying on top of bedrock. You often seen exposures of bedrock in the streambeds.

So if they just dig down a few feet through the cobble and gravel, and lay the pipeline on top of the bedrock, then cover it up with cobble and gravel, the pipeline will likely be exposed to severe scour during major floods. Because during major floods, all that cobble and gravel is hurtled downstream, and the stream scours right down to bedrock, then cobble and gravel drops out again when the floodwaters come down.

I believe that was the problem with the pipeline break on the Yellowstone River. The pipeline wasn't buried deep enough and scour during a major flood cut down through the streambed substrates and damaged the pipe.