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Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

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2007/6/19 21:49
From Lancaster County
Posts: 1545
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Quote:

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Board,

Bentonite is a naturally occuring clay that is grayish-green in color. Drop a handfull in a bucket of water and that is exactly what it will look like. With no flow it's not going to flush quickly but like the Farmer said it's not a big deal.

Regards,

Tim Murphy


You're absolutely correct, and as an example, take a look at the Erie tribs after a good rain. That green color they pick up, which we anglers use to judge for optimal steelhead conditions, is the same sort of issue, i.e. suspended clay.

However, the big difference is you don't normally see suspended clay in the Loyalsock like that. And if there is bentonite there, what other compounds or traces of chemicals are also present?

The sky probably isn't completely falling in Sullivan County, but its also not a non-issue...

Posted on: 2012/9/12 17:10


Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

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2009/10/15 13:45
From Eastern PA
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Quote:

sandfly wrote:
there is a gag order on doctors, papers, and news channels up here..only 10 % of what is happening is getting out to you folks.


Would love to see a credible source on this statement.

Posted on: 2012/9/12 17:17


Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

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From Tioga co. formerly of bucks co.
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Posted on: 2012/9/12 17:30
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Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?
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From the article it indicates that eh BMP's failed. The Best Management Practice for crossing a stream with a trench would be a pump around where a coffer dam is built upstream and one downstream. Clear source water is then pumped to below the lower. coffer dam. Water inbetween the dams is pumped into a filter bag.

I just finished a stream project where improvements were made to grade and bed elevation so we did quite a bit of excavating in the bed and banks. I had coffer dams and 3" pumps going for two months straight as part of the E&S controls mandated by the DEP.

I am absolutely sure that if this project were to be considered by he DEP through permitting that a pump around would be mandated through the Conservation district. While the DEP is not responsible for E&C controls they do recognize the plans and point out short comings. But ultimately its a conservation district requirement.

I am curious whether the BMP was not used, required or failed as was stated.

And that type of clay/mud infused into a stream with low flow is not good. Its not like a high water event where the turbidity is diluted, low flow creates a slurry of this suspended material.

It is clearly a violation of erosion and sediment controls through project permitting with the DEP. Fines should be assessed and the situation corrected.

My guess is there were no permits and the company just did it. Quick, in and out, nobody will notice.

Posted on: 2012/9/12 18:00
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Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

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I have some technical questions, for the constructions experts on the board.

Why would they be using bentonite in a "open trench cut across the stream." I know they use that when tunneling under streams, for lubrication, but if they're doing a trench cut, what would the bentonite be used for?

Second question. In a trench cut across a stream like Loyalsock Creek, how deep do they cut the trench? Do they just dig down into the streambed cobble and gravel? Or do they dig down deeper, cutting down into the underlying bedrock?

In many cases on the stream in that region, the streambed consists of a pretty shallow layer of loose material (cobble and gravel) lying on top of bedrock. You often seen exposures of bedrock in the streambeds.

So if they just dig down a few feet through the cobble and gravel, and lay the pipeline on top of the bedrock, then cover it up with cobble and gravel, the pipeline will likely be exposed to severe scour during major floods. Because during major floods, all that cobble and gravel is hurtled downstream, and the stream scours right down to bedrock, then cobble and gravel drops out again when the floodwaters come down.

I believe that was the problem with the pipeline break on the Yellowstone River. The pipeline wasn't buried deep enough and scour during a major flood cut down through the streambed substrates and damaged the pipe.

Posted on: 2012/9/12 18:00


Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

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2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18877
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Quote:

flyfishinx2 wrote:
I have to admit that I'm not as concerned as I was yesterday before I knew some of the facts , but this is a lot more than just a little sludge in a stream that typically has no soot in it.

The fact that this wasn't reported to the news by state officials and that the park employee lied and said this "no advisories were issued to swimmers or campers at the park" is very concerning because I have 4 witnesses that would testify otherwise.



What kind of advisory would it be. "Swimming in this stream may discolor you shorts?"

Posted on: 2012/9/12 18:13
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Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18877
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Quote:

sandfly wrote:
welcome to my world this crap happens everyday, and no one reports it. there is a gag order on doctors, papers, and news channels up here..only 10 % of what is happening is getting out to you folks. the pipes when they are going under roads and streams are coated in a mud/mineral oil to slide better. And you say this mud is ok !!! same thing has happened to a small wild stream a trib to pine and no news got out, you should smell the stuff.....heavy in a oil/petreolum smell, but thats ok its mud thats what they keep saying..


Wait a second. Who said it was OK?

Posted on: 2012/9/12 18:16
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Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18877
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Quote:

salmonoid wrote:
Quote:

TimMurphy wrote:
Dear Board,

Bentonite is a naturally occuring clay that is grayish-green in color. Drop a handfull in a bucket of water and that is exactly what it will look like. With no flow it's not going to flush quickly but like the Farmer said it's not a big deal.

Regards,

Tim Murphy


You're absolutely correct, and as an example, take a look at the Erie tribs after a good rain. That green color they pick up, which we anglers use to judge for optimal steelhead conditions, is the same sort of issue, i.e. suspended clay.

However, the big difference is you don't normally see suspended clay in the Loyalsock like that. And if there is bentonite there, what other compounds or traces of chemicals are also present?

The sky probably isn't completely falling in Sullivan County, but its also not a non-issue...


Looks to me like there were traces of H2O. Hey, technically it is also a chemical.

It's a whole lot easier to win your battles when you pick them wisely. But you guya are mostly swinging at windmills or however the saying goes.

I'd imagine the extremely low water conditions compounded the appearance.

I am not saying it is a non issue. In fact I said the contractor should be cited. However, exaggerating it and making false claims about it actually damages you stance and makes the actual issue much less of an issue.

Sal, I'm not saying you in particular are doing that. But other were. I just chose to attach to your response out of convenience.

Posted on: 2012/9/12 18:19
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Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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That's not good just before the spawning season.

Posted on: 2012/9/12 18:41
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Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?
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2006/9/9 19:16
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:
I have some technical questions, for the constructions experts on the board.

Why would they be using bentonite in a "open trench cut across the stream." I know they use that when tunneling under streams, for lubrication, but if they're doing a trench cut, what would the bentonite be used for?

Second question. In a trench cut across a stream like Loyalsock Creek, how deep do they cut the trench? Do they just dig down into the streambed cobble and gravel? Or do they dig down deeper, cutting down into the underlying bedrock?

In many cases on the stream in that region, the streambed consists of a pretty shallow layer of loose material (cobble and gravel) lying on top of bedrock. You often seen exposures of bedrock in the streambeds.

So if they just dig down a few feet through the cobble and gravel, and lay the pipeline on top of the bedrock, then cover it up with cobble and gravel, the pipeline will likely be exposed to severe scour during major floods. Because during major floods, all that cobble and gravel is hurtled downstream, and the stream scours right down to bedrock, then cobble and gravel drops out again when the floodwaters come down.

I believe that was the problem with the pipeline break on the Yellowstone River. The pipeline wasn't buried deep enough and scour during a major flood cut down through the streambed substrates and damaged the pipe.


TB,. you are correct. Placing a pipeline in the streambed cobble exposes it to the potential for scour during flood events. Natural grade control like bedrock would be preferred over constructed grade control structure. Therefor it makes sense that they were probably cutting through the bedrock to provide stability. This is more than a in and out project and IMHO there should have definitely been a pump around BMP mandated.

Watersheds like the Loyalsock and Muncy get epic flooding/scour events. It is possible to build a grade control structure below the pipeline but likely as you say the bedrock was probably shallow below the transported bedload.

It could have been the case that the BMP for the dirtbag failed by exploding because it wasn't changed in time and the event was short lived. (flushed soon after with clean water from the pumparound.) But as stated if the base flow was inadequate, this would explain the prolonged turbidity.

Posted on: 2012/9/12 18:50
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

Joined:
2006/12/13 9:28
From Other side of the tracks
Posts: 18877
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Quote:

Chaz wrote:
That's not good just before the spawning season.


That was exactly my thought once I realized the horror part of the thread was not true.

Posted on: 2012/9/13 5:06
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

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2006/12/10 19:49
Posts: 432
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Maurice - you may know more or be up to date but the few times I have had to cross a stream we have done horizontal boring. I am not suggesting this is ther best method to cross a stream as it entails a large excavation on at least one end of the ''run''. I was running sanitary lines.. Also, it used to be that a pipe crossing a stream had to be encased in concrete.

Posted on: 2012/9/13 21:03


Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?
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Andy, that sounds right. I don't know what method they were using I just am sure they should have been doing a pump around to keep the stream out of the equation.

Posted on: 2012/9/13 21:16
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: Natural gas drilling accident along the Loyalsock?

Joined:
2008/12/29 12:54
From Frederick, MD & New Philly, OH
Posts: 445
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Not once did I fish the sock when I lived in PA. So many wild streams, so little time. It was impressive sight during and after Lee hit. I find it hard to believe that permits are issued for an open cut of a stream for a feeding or gathering line. However, the TP and Marc 1 are eminant domain lines and obviously must receive a more relaxed type of permitting. Anyone who witnessed Lee should respect that THEY are installing the pipe in the safest manor to ensure the integrity of the pipe for years to come.

Posted on: 2012/9/25 1:32
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