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Re: Isn't that special...
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2006/9/9 9:29
From Monessen, PA
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I think it is appropriate to come to the defense of people you lumped in with others despite the fact that they care as much or more than you do that we get it right on this issue. Hopefully, you aren't part of the problem by helping elect representatives that are hostile to environmental concerns.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 10:46
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Peace, Tony


Re: Isn't that special...

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2010/6/30 14:13
From Lehighton, PA
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Quote:

JackM wrote:
I think it is appropriate to come to the defense of people you lumped in with others despite the fact that they care as much or more than you do that we get it right on this issue. Hopefully, you aren't part of the problem by helping elect representatives that are hostile to environmental concerns.


I didn't lump anyone in together other than to say that even those that are for a more cautious approach with adequate regulation and oversight failed to make it the priority it demands to be. Then others failed to even care to put even a modicum of regualtion or severance tax planning on them. Together they have all combined to fail the citizens of PA. Not being a party hack, I'm not beholden to the whole partisan politics game. Hopefuly you aren't part of the problem either by failing to level any criticism when the ball is dropped, even by your own.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 14:12
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"Right turn, Clyde."


Re: Isn't that special...
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I didn't vote wrong, but I suspect you did and I'm still going to pay for that mistake.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 15:55
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Peace, Tony


Re: Isn't that special...

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Insinuate all you want, I know I contacted my legislators numerous times and told them exactly what was needed regarding the drilling. I did what I could do to let them know what I supported How exactly do you vote wrong when both sides take money from the gas industry? Also I'm unaware that there was a citizens vote on a severance tax? That opportunity was pissed away by all of our legislators because it wasn't much of a priority to those that were for it which allowed those that were against to easily stifle it.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 17:42
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"Right turn, Clyde."


Re: Isn't that special...

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2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
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pcray..........where does chlorine occur naturally in the ocean? i don't know what you do for a living but you'd make a great lobbyist for the gas companies , you seem to try and debunk every statement the folks on here make if it's negative towards the marcellus project. would you be so kind as to explain why?

Posted on: 2011/1/4 18:01


Re: Isn't that special...

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From Bozeman
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Chloride (a chlorine ion) is present in seawater. It's what bonds with sodium to make salt.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 18:27


Re: Isn't that special...

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YUP YUP chloride is in salt , sodium chloride YUP but chloride is NOT chlorine. They specifically mention chlorine mixing with other chemicals to form halomethanes.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 18:52


Re: Isn't that special...
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Kinda like hydrogen in water, yet it won't combust? I flunked college chemistry.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 18:56
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Re: Isn't that special...

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hate to bust yer bubble JackM but that's sorta how a hydrogen cell works in a car using water for fuel , the hydrogen is seperated and then injected into the fuel mix.....kapow.....ignition. Beleive it or not i observerved two young Woofers (look that one up) construct a hydeogen cell this summer from mason jars and spare parts from my friends farm........and it worked.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 19:09


Re: Isn't that special...

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From Bozeman
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If the chloride ion is present, of course chlorine is present.

"The most abundant dissolved ions in seawater are sodium, chlorine, magnesium, sulfate and calcium.[6]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawater ... ferences_from_fresh_water

Posted on: 2011/1/4 19:20


Re: Isn't that special...

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I am adding my 2 cents a day or so after I read the article so spare me if I have anything "wrong" here. One of my bigger concerns regarding this whole mess, and I believe it will be a huge mess to deal with in the next decade is that some of the treatment plants are failing to meet their treatment "standards" and in some cases are in violation by not being able to handle the total dissolved solids in the frack water. To me it should be really simple- if you produce frack water and can't get it treated to meet the standards set to allow discharge then you can keep your frack water in storeage until you can find a place that can treat it.
BTW, does anyone know if their are any new treatment plants being built specifically to handle frack water? You would think if some $$$ could be made treating the frack water a few state of the art plants would be in the works.
All in all this whole Marcellus Shale industry has been greenlighted too fast with too little oversight and if you have ever been on a farm you know hard it is to get the horse back in the barn wants he has gotten out......

Posted on: 2011/1/4 20:05


Re: Isn't that special...

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2006/9/20 21:44
From E-Town and Germania
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Quote:
"The most abundant dissolved ions in seawater are sodium, chlorine, magnesium, sulfate and calcium.[6]"


I am an analytical chemist. That's an error in that wiki. Elemental chlorine is diatomic, Cl2, like oxygen, O2. Chloride is the ionic state. But if ionic bromide is present with chlorine, the chlorine can react with bromide to produce bromine. Bromine in turn is highly reactive and can react with hydrocarbons as mentioned in the article.

Let's not get into a pissing match, the fact is it's being done and it's not a good thing Martha. OK so they stop it but from what I get from the article is that the waste that is being produced from existing operations is grandfathered and does not require further treatment despite how toxic it may be, nor will it be treated in the future. After all let's not get them upset, they may leave PA and the politicians will lose their perks from these moneygrubbers.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 21:32


Re: Isn't that special...

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From Bozeman
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Interesting and I stand corrected.

Posted on: 2011/1/4 21:49


Re: Isn't that special...

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Quote:
pcray..........where does chlorine occur naturally in the ocean?


Chlorine, or more accurately chloride (chlorine atom missing an electron) is a major constituent in sea salt. Salt is classically depicted as NaCl, though realistically there's often a mixture of different salts. Thats a sodium ion bonded to a chlorine ion.

So chlorine, the element, is in high abundance in our oceans. However, its typically ionized, not in its elemental form (Cl2, as sal said). Cl2 is the reactive substance used to disenfect water, like in swimming pools, or in lower abundance, our drinking water.

Bromide is another common salt, present in seawater as well one of the salts in treated frackwater (treatment does a poor job at removing the salts). Just like chlorine, the substance in the salts is the ionic form, bromide. The elemental bromine (Br2) is similar in many respects to Chlorine (Cl2). In fact, it's used instead of chlorine as a disenfectant in many pool applications, such as the hot tub on my deck. The reason is that it is less volatile than elemental chlorine (Cl2), so it stays in the water longer and stinks less, especially in heated and disturbed water.

So bromide + chloride are both salts and common in seawater, frackwater, any salt, really, even fresh springwater has some salinity. The elemental forms (Cl2 and Br2) are the reactive forms, and are typically NOT present, nor are they present in frackwater. However, when bromide salts come in contact with elemental chlorine (Cl2), they can free the ionic bromide to form bromine (Br2). The elemental chlorine is supplied when the water is treated for use as drinking water. That frees the elemental bromine, which can combine with hydrocarbons to form the substances discussed.

Quote:
i don't know what you do for a living


I have degrees in Physics (B.S.) and Materials Science and Engineering (M.S). Most people don't understand the latter. Basically, it's kind of a mix of physics and chemistry, focusing on different forms of matter and their effects on the physical properties of that material. A lot of work in bonding and crystallography. I currently work as a metallurgist. I design new alloys for use in specific applications. For the sake of full disclosure, yes, we design alloys for drilling application and interact with their engineers. But to say I'm personally invested in the industry takes it perhaps a bit too far, as we do just as much with wind, nuclear, etc. None of them are our "cash cow", aerospace fills that role.

Quote:
you'd make a great lobbyist for the gas companies , you seem to try and debunk every statement the folks on here make if it's negative towards the marcellus project. would you be so kind as to explain why?


I believe in being accurate. I debunk everything and attempt to be unbiased in doing so. Rarely are stories meant for public consumption not designed as propoganda, nomatter which side it comes from. Writers have agenda's, they probably took the job to begin with in order to influence people. Usually they aren't outright false, but they are misleading. I abhor senstionalism. Read everything with a skeptical eye, look for the truth behind an article, beyond the emotion the author is trying to get you to feel. Emotion clouds the truth.

There are definitely issues with M shale drilling that need to be addressed. We are doing a poor job in many areas at regulating this, and improvements need to be made. The problem is that there seem to be 2 camps. One says let em do anything they want. The other says oppose em at every juncture. Both are poor positions to take, IMO. The end result is that too much emphasis is put on putting in controls that attempt to fix non-problems, and ignoring the real problems.

Posted on: 2011/1/5 8:28


Re: Isn't that special...

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2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
Posts: 4469
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There are probably a dozen folks on here , including myself who have stated more than once that we are not opposed to drilling , but would like to see it done with minimal damage to the environment , to me that is as moderate as we can get. I will agree that there is a camp that says "Drill baby Drill" but , on here at least i think most folks are ok with the project as long as it doesn't end up a disaster. When we hear things like bromide mixed with chlorine creates halomethanes (carcinogens) in the water treated at sewage treatment plants , subsequently released into our drinking water sources, for some , even the moderates that=disaster.

Posted on: 2011/1/5 9:00



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