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Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
Posts: 4808
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Quote:

Missy wrote:
Franklin,
Honestly, I don't drink milkshakes from fast food restaurants. I do like ColdStone Creamery though...

In all seriousness, if your brother has invented a frack fluid that is non-toxic, he should work on marketing it. It probably isn't as cost effective as the current solutions, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction...


He developed it years ago at a major chemical company prior to returning to school for his PhD. The product is being used by Halliburton. Possibly others. I'm guessing after looking over the MSDSs that they (Haliburton) also use other fracking products.

FYI, another brother with an advanced degree also in ChemE is an expert in water soluble polymers. You would be surprised in which products they are is used.

Edit: Let me leave you with something to consider; I know of four or five contributors to this forum that have a college education in one of the sciences. I'm not aware of any of them that thinks drilling has too much risk to go forward. For myself I am confident that the engineering processes are refined enough and understood to minimize risks to an acceptable level. This does require drillers to conform to those standards and for government authorities to monitor and verify compliance. In doing so the rare cases of accident are also addressable. They are local in nature and most do not have long term affects.

If the risks were so high wouldn't those of us with related educational backgrounds be stronger opponents of drilling?

Posted on: 2011/8/11 19:09

Edited by franklin on 2011/8/11 19:26:37
Edited by franklin on 2011/8/11 19:35:24


Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6435
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Quote:
Edit: Let me leave you with something to consider; I know of four or five contributors to this forum that have a college education in one of the sciences. I'm not aware of any of them that thinks drilling has too much risk to go forward. For myself I am confident that the engineering processes are refined enough and understood to minimize risks to an acceptable level. This does require drillers to conform to those standards and for government authorities to monitor and verify compliance. In doing so the rare cases of accident are also addressable. They are local in nature and most do not have long term affects.


The point is, is going to happen no matter what. I appreciate the people watching out of the corner of their eyes and questioning, questioning, questioning! Is it really such a bad thing to have the people worried about this so they are more proactive in monitoring this industry? It is not only educational for them to learn more about it but it may also help bring to light some violations before they become "accidents". It may also bring new blood into stream restoration and water quality monitoring, which can always be used. Eventually some of those people may even take intrest in Macro- stream life.

Quote:
If the risks were so high wouldn't those of us with related educational backgrounds be stronger opponents of drilling?


I don't know would you? The almighty dollar is a terrible thing and the more of it around, the better off we are having people making you jump through hoops to get it. I don't know you any better than Johnny Johnson crossing some intersection in Bellefonte Pa right now as I type this.

PA has left the industry off without a good tax on this stuff. So IMO if /when "accidents" happen the industry should foot the bill. When/If roads are wore out, the industry should foot the bill. When/If streams get polluted, the industry should be heavily fined and give money to restore the watersheds.

If it takes some crazy nut, crying that the sky is falling in bumf PA to get just on violation brought to light and remedied......then kudos to them, thank you.

Posted on: 2011/8/11 21:15
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Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2009/4/4 8:58
From Reading
Posts: 600
Offline

Quote:

Missy wrote:
Franklin,
Honestly, I don't drink milkshakes from fast food restaurants. I do like ColdStone Creamery though...

In all seriousness, if your brother has invented a frack fluid that is non-toxic, he should work on marketing it. It probably isn't as cost effective as the current solutions, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction...


Quote:

franklin wrote:

If the risks were so high wouldn't those of us with related educational backgrounds be stronger opponents of drilling?



Franklin there is a big difference between you and grudgeonville and some of the other people on this forum that are looking out for Pennsylvania's natural resources. You have a vested interest in drilling, ie your brothers edible frac formula or grudgeonville working for the drilling industry. The rest of us have a vested interest in protecting our precious natural resources. We just want to be able to drink clean water, fish clean streams, and enjoy nature without running into well pads. There lies the difference plain and simple. So to accomplish this we sound the alarm bell to make sure the industry is kept in check. Without that the drillers would ruin our state. That I am sure of.

Posted on: 2011/8/12 8:31


Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13423
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Quote:
PA has left the industry off without a good tax on this stuff.


I fully support an "impact fee" of some sort to cover the cost of gas industry problems, like road repair, cost of increased monitoring efforts, cost of permit process, etc. We could wrangle over the details I'm sure, but the bottom line is that it needs to be distributed properly so that the entities that are responsible for such work get the money, and we need to insure it goes towards actually doing that work.

I also support making the companies clean up any damage that results from accidents. Think that one is a no brainer, and the way it is now. The trick is in "proving" it, which requires baseline testing before the drilling. That costs money. See previous paragraph.

But regarding a tax. First, they do indeed pay taxes, the same as any other business in PA. What was being proposed was adding an additional tax specifically to the gas industry, more than is paid by other, equally damaging heavy industries.

I do NOT support such a tax for the general fund. Why? Because though the gas industry would then pay money as compensation for the unique problems they cause, the money would not be going to the entity responsible for fixing the problems, and nor would it actually be used to fix those problems. Rather, the problems would remain un-fixed and the state would use the money for something that it felt was more important at the time. That's just wouldn't be right. Imagine how you'd feel if you found out that coal companies paid enough money to clean up all the AMD in the state way back when, but the state chose instead to use that money towards something else. People who support a general fund tax don't seem generally concerned about cleaning up these problems. Rather, they're either looking to simply punish the gas industry out of spite, or else they're looking for a funding source for their own unrelated causes.

As far as the "edible" frac fluid. That is indeed possible. Up front, this stuff isn't as toxic as most think it is (not that I would drink it, though). The point that is being missed is that it becomes much more toxic after use, many of the bad contaminants come from underground. And I don't care what you used to begin with, I don't think there's a way to not bring that crap up with it.

Posted on: 2011/8/12 8:57


Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2009/7/22 15:53
From The Beaver
Posts: 221
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Quote:

franklin wrote:
Quote:

Selfinflictedfunk wrote:
Quote:

franklin wrote:
Quote:

Selfinflictedfunk wrote:
Quote:

Gudgeonville wrote:
We are not drinking frac fluid! No frac fluids are getting into the water supply! That is what I am trying to get across in my posts. Missy insists that drilling is going to cause endocrine disruptions, etc! There is no indication or proof that it gets anywhere near your water supply. It's all "what if"! What if all of the gasoline tanks at gas stations all over the state were leaking product into the aquifers! Oh wait, that already happened. That is much more plausible than frac fluids getting into any aquifer.

There have been very few spills or accidents associated with this industry. The one that did get some very diluted frac water in a stream did not even have any effect on the stream. (Chesapeake in the northeast part of the state) The issue in Black Moshannon sprayed some flowback onto the ground and probably killed some grass and trees, but, no long term effect on any body of water or aquifer.

I'm not looking to change the world here, most fears of water contamination are not happening. I can understand bikers disdain for the industry, he just doesn't like heavy industry moving into rural areas and such. Perfectly understandable. But claiming that fracing is killing all known life in PA is ridiculous and a scare tactic being used by antis to stop all drilling in the commonwealth.



If fracking doesn't cause harm then why did the industry get specific exclusion (thanks Dick and Bush) from the Safe Water Drinking Act? Why are they shipping water to peoples homes and installing filtration systems....per court settlements?....that then put a gag order on the home owners so they can never discuss it? Why are towns in my county having problems with their getting their drinking water treated for trihalomethanes, that are being dumped upstream?....this is after being treated, as pcray pointed out, in a treatment plants not able to properly treat it?

http://www.wtae.com/team4/28623580/detail.html

http://www.wtae.com/team4/28827499/detail.html


I don't think THMs are being dumped upstream. I think they are byproducts of the chlorination process used to treat the drinking water. As I understand it THMs can result from both natural or man made substances in the source water.

If you take a gallon of water from any large stream (and many small streams) in the world you will find some amount of a "cancer causing" substance. The question is what is the concentration?

To my knowledge no untreated frack waste water was legally dumped into Pennsylvania streams as an industry practice. It was run through treatment plants which in many cases had poor capability to filter out much of the critical materials. Still it was diluted below acceptable federal and state health levels. As Pcray pointed out there was accumulation of some concentrations slightly above acceptable levels that was monitored in rivers. Those standards are set at orders of magnitude less than what is considered statistically measurable health impact. Even so the state has added additional requirements on disposal in the past few months.


I stated this "this is after being treated, as pcray pointed out, in a treatment plants not able to properly treat it?" So I'm aware of that this is post treatment and the cause of the THMs. This is straight from the article I linked to

"The head of the Beaver Falls water authority declined to talk on camera, but he told Van Osdol their problems were aggravated by the release of gas industry wastewater, also known as frack water, eighteen miles upstream from the treatment plant. He says the authority is changing treatment procedures to address the problem. Earlier this year, the state told the gas industry to stop dumping frack water into rivers."

So, YES, untreated frac water was being dumped in our rivers.

Any insight as to why the gag orders or the exemptions...which was the point of my post.





18 miles upstream is the New Castle Sanitation Authority facility. This is the source the Beaver Falls representative is alluding to. New Castle was one of the facilities that was handling frack fluid but had insufficient capability to treat the waste adequately. This is not dumping. Dumping is releasing full concentrated materials into a waterway (illegal) straight from the well site. Doing that would likely be immediately harmful to the environment and a much more serious health risk to humans.


It's right in the article......"Earlier this year, the state told the gas industry to stop dumping frack water into rivers." I'm not sure how that reads to you but sounds to me like they were dumping directly into the rivers. And we all know fines have been levied for dumping illegally in abandoned wells in the ANF. We have also seen trucks dumping roadside....just sayin.


Posted on: 2011/8/12 9:59


Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2009/7/22 15:53
From The Beaver
Posts: 221
Offline
Quote:

franklin wrote:
Quote:

Missy wrote:
Franklin,
Honestly, I don't drink milkshakes from fast food restaurants. I do like ColdStone Creamery though...

In all seriousness, if your brother has invented a frack fluid that is non-toxic, he should work on marketing it. It probably isn't as cost effective as the current solutions, but it would certainly be a step in the right direction...


He developed it years ago at a major chemical company prior to returning to school for his PhD. The product is being used by Halliburton. Possibly others. I'm guessing after looking over the MSDSs that they (Haliburton) also use other fracking products.

FYI, another brother with an advanced degree also in ChemE is an expert in water soluble polymers. You would be surprised in which products they are is used.

Edit: Let me leave you with something to consider; I know of four or five contributors to this forum that have a college education in one of the sciences. I'm not aware of any of them that thinks drilling has too much risk to go forward. For myself I am confident that the engineering processes are refined enough and understood to minimize risks to an acceptable level. This does require drillers to conform to those standards and for government authorities to monitor and verify compliance. In doing so the rare cases of accident are also addressable. They are local in nature and most do not have long term affects.

If the risks were so high wouldn't those of us with related educational backgrounds be stronger opponents of drilling?


But there are people with just as high of an education that know much more than you or I do about fracing that are against it. Does it take a PhD to connect the dots between gag orders, exemption from the Safe Water Drinking Act, Halliburton and Dick Cheneys closed door energy meetings? I think ol'Dick worked for Halliburton for a while didn't he? Nothing going on there I'm sure. Or is this to hard to see from way up high on your educated horse?

Point is.....people work their whole life to afford to live in areas that are being destroyed at worst and disturbed at best in the name of profits for companies that have no vested interest in the area other than profit. These same companies have our state government in their pocket to the point being appointed cabinet seats by the governor. There is not equal protection of citizens as there is industry by the very people we vote into office to look out for us. It sickens me...period.

If one persons well is ruined that is one too many for me. I admit much of this is an emotional issue for many....not based in an educated opinion or facts and figures but in real world situations where people are being strong armed into signing lease (you know the eminent domain thing) or having their property ruined for further use, well water ruined and streams and rivers impacted not to mention our states infrastructure. Only to see the industry get what amounts to a slap on the wrist when they do get caught.....even then they don't admit wrong doing they just settle in court and gag order the plaintiff. To deny there has been an impact is just ignorant and to deny that it could get worse is just as ignorant.

Look into the Norwegian investment in fracing in the US, then contrast that to their tax on drilling companies in their country. I'm not advocating going as extreme as they have but at the very least they are protecting themselves......ya know like Alaska has done. But we hear the same old scare tactics here whenever someone mentions a tax.....which are completely baseless. Greed will always win out......and remember it is the root of all evil.

Posted on: 2011/8/12 10:40

Edited by Selfinflictedfunk on 2011/8/12 11:04:49


Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4427
Offline
selfinflictedfunk, you nailed it!!!! nothing else needs to be said!

Posted on: 2011/8/12 17:16


Re: Holy gas wells Batman!!

Joined:
2006/9/13 22:36
From Tioga co. formerly of bucks co.
Posts: 5504
Offline
I agree too.

Posted on: 2011/8/12 18:42
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