Fly Fishing, Trumped

[greenghost]

Hold on to your fishing fedoras and snap shut your fly boxes, the man who believes global warming is a Chinese scam is coming to office. Trump is about to makes things tough for those who want to protect the environment. His policy is slash and burn. Damned the land as long as jobs and wealth are created.

He has pledged to do away with much of the positive environmental protection strides previous administrations have made. Goodbye clean power. If he is successful in bringing back the coal industry it will be through a withdrawal or lessening of clean air restrictions… be prepared for a return of acid rain. Hopefully, the current power generating industry geared toward natural gas will make it too difficult. But he also pledges fracking in parks and previously protected lands. A concern for the future of our waters.

I’ve been around for awhile. I remember the AMD, acid rain and point pollution before the Water Protection policies took affect. And I have seen the great strides made in so many waters, especially in SWPA. It would break my heart to see a reversal because of a short-sighted man and his administration.

So here’s my point. I think as a sporting group we need to become more diligent and work harder than ever before in protecting our waters. It has to be local and statewide from a grassroots efforts to working with state to implement more effective DEP laws… all the while knowing the Feds will not be backing our efforts. And will in fact, be opposing them.

 

[greenghost]

Yes, well, this just in...

 

[foxfire]

Greenghost, please re-read your John Gierach quote.

 

[Mike]

Not just in; the article is dated September 26, 2016. A lot has taken place since then and there is much more to come during this transition period. I plan to wait and see.

 

[sarce]

Hope you all like flyfishing for carp.

 

[RLeep2]

I would imagine this thread is either headed for the log-in only forums or possibly, just vaporization...

So, I'll say my piece quickly and directly:

Yes, I'm concerned as to what a Trump administration may do to the existing web of environmental protection. It isn't a pleasant thought.

But here's the thing: We change policy in this country at roughly the same speed that elephants gestate fetusus (feti?). It is an act, then react cycle that tends to keep policy actions from not falling off the cliff at the edge of either ideological edge. When Reagan was elected, membership in virtually all the major conservation/environmental groups boomed. They flexed their muscle and we spent most of the 1980's in court duking it out with the despoilers. Some we won, others we lost. Most, and this is important, we simply stopped by suspending them in ajudicational limbo for years and years and years..

I expect the same growth in membership will occur under this most recent set of elected, umm, folks and that we will see the same basic results.

Not all good, but certainly not all bad. Mostly kind of meh.. (Isn't this the word the current whippersnappers use...?) Kinda like waiting for elephants fetuses to gestate.

So, I'm concerned,, but not ready to declare Armageddon..


In the meantime, go join TU, NWF, American Rivers, even Sierra if you roll that way. Be a part of the force that guarantees that things remain in some semblance of balance during the somewhat darker days to come.

 

[geebee]

In the meantime, go join TU, NWF, American Rivers, even Sierra if you roll that way. Be a part of the force that guarantees that things remain in some semblance of balance during the somewhat darker days to come.

hear hear.

if we want clean cold water we have to fight for it regardless of who is in power.

 

[greenghost]

RLeep2 wrote:
In the meantime, go join TU, NWF, American Rivers, even Sierra if you roll that way. Be a part of the force that guarantees that things remain in some semblance of balance during the somewhat darker days to come.

Yepper. That is exactly right.

 

[Dave_W]

This thread will be moved to Conservation forum shortly.

Please stick with the matter of conservation.

There is already a thread on the election in the Off the Water forum.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[John96]

In my opinion, environmental issue are the most important thing that we are currently facing as a country and as humanity. Social and economic issues can be damned as far as I am concerned, because if we don't get this mess cleaned up there won't be an economy or society.

That being said, nothing has happened yet. We just need to be educated and aware of the issues and fight tooth and nail when/if the BS comes to the table.

I think the above posts that mentioned joining conservation organizations and getting active are very insightful and should be considered by any and all that consider themselves sportsman (and women!).

Fight the good fight.

 

[CRB]

As long as natural gas is cheep and available the coal industry will continue to slide down hill. NG will win out because all the plans need is a gas pipe and not miners, loaders, coal trains, loaders,etc . The waters are cleaner today because of NG making a positive impact in green house emissions.

 

[pcray1231]

CRB, agree with your first sentence. But your second. Umm, climate change does not affect the CLEANLINESS of waters. Temperature, maybe. But not cleanliness.

That said, I do believe that, on average, NG has made a positive impact on the cleanliness of waters. Just not by reducing greenhouse emissions. But by stalling the advancement of coal mining, reducing particulate emissions, and especially in shutting down coal power plants there thereby substantially reducing acid rain inducing sulfur emissions. These advancements are somewhat offset, but not fully, by construction of roads/pipelines/rigs for new gas wells, and the occasional spill of fracking fluid, and the occasional failure of well casings leading to frack fluid and methane migration. Plus, in larger waterways, disposal of frack fluids is often after incomplete processing through sewage treatment facilities, thus there may be some chemical contamination stemming from substances typically buried deep underground.

 

[franklin]

The idea that somehow Trump wants to roll back water and air quality to the 1940s is utter BS. The bulk of water and air improvements happened years ago and are built into our current systems. No one is going to rip out water treatment plants or burn coal without currently in place treatment standards.

I expect changes which allow less red tape in building newer power plants that are both more efficient (lower costs to consumers) and improved air/water quality to replace aging plants.

 

[bigjohn58]

I'm not too worried about this. Trump can try to roll back regulations but unless the house and then congress passes it that'll never happen. Just make sure your local representatives understand your views and these laws Trump wants to pass will never make it to him. I personally am more concerned about what's getting dumped into the Susquehanna River then the whole global warming thing. Sometimes I feel its happening and sometimes I to think its just a natural thing occurring. I don't though feel that its a reason to pollute.

 

[pcray1231]

That's just not true.

The regulations which could be rolled back are executive actions.

- An extension of the already long-passed Clean Air Act, Obama put tighter limits on carbon emissions through an EPA executive action. The limits were of the slow implementation variety, with limits getting tighter over time. The energy industry very quickly outlined a scaled shutdown of coal fired power plants. Many of them have shut down already, with more planned in future years. But then the U.S. Supreme Court issued a stay on the new regulations taking effect, to review whether it was an unlawful extension of the Clean Air Act (which allowed EPA limits on various pollutants, and those limits could change through executive action, but it did not list carbon emissions as pollutants). Then Scalia died and it's been in limbo for sometime. Hasn't gone back to the court because the result would be a 4-4 tie, and hence the stay would just be extended.

Since it was done by executive action, Trump can undo it by executive action. Not that the plants that have already shut down are going to re-open. And there's also the tricky business that this was part of cutting carbon emissions as part of an international agreement, so to undo it, Trump has to back out of an international agreement, which usually isn't done by new presidents, else every treaty the U.S. makes would be open to be reneged upon every 4 years. More likely is that Trump appoints a Supreme Court nominee, and let the court come to a 5-4 decision that the original order was unconstitutional. Now Trump can tell the other countries that he didn't back out, but that Obama didn't have the authority to begin with, and he wouldn't have the authority to enforce it.

The irony being that many of these plants will shut down either way. As gas is simply winning in the marketplace, outside of Obama's regulations. They were shutting down before Obama put in his executive action, which is why the coal industry very quickly had a list of plants to shut down. Obama's actions were basically to take credit for what was happening anyway. And if Trump and/or the Supreme Court undoes it, it doesn't really change anything, other than maybe removing a deadline. Don't you love politics?

- Later, Obama issued an executive action which ended new leases on federal land for coal mining. This one was undisputably legal. And Trump could undisputably undo it. Without involving Congress. That said, it didn't effect land which was already leased, and enough of it is leased for all the coal the coal companies want for another 30-50 years. So this Obama executive action has very little short term impact, and Trump undoing it will have very little short term impact.

- Keystone Pipeline - Approval was the EPA, not congressional. Obama's admin said no. Trump's will say yes. This is almost certain to happen now. This is for oil, not coal. And it will increase production in the Canada oil sands. The environmental effect, though, is probably pretty minor if any in America. Building of a pipeline, basically. The drilling is taking place in Canada instead of the Middle East, and it won't change the amount of oil being used.

 

[FarmerDave]

Interesting discussion.

I personally don't think the sky will fall and will also take a wait and see.

As CRB said, coal will never make a comeback as long as the nat gas prices are 1/5 what they were 8 or 9 years ago. And since we now have a surplus of it, priced will not go up substantially any time soon. Anyone check their gas bill lately?

Coal is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

I am now prepare to be pcrayed. ;-)

 

[FarmerDave]

RLeep2 wrote:

In the meantime, go join TU, NWF, American Rivers, even Sierra if you roll that way. Be a part of the force that guarantees that things remain in some semblance of balance during the somewhat darker days to come.

I'd renew my DU membership, but wife keep throwing it out because I don't hunt ducks. ;-)

Good post, Bob.

 

[pcray1231]

Coal is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

I am now prepare to be pcrayed.

Only lightly. Because I agree. Although I think they probably do know it.

Trump can roll back all the regulations on coal that he wants and it won't make much of a difference. Like I said, those plants were all shutting down anyway. The regulations only became possible because they could get away with it without inducing brown outs. And they only did them to take credit for the downfall of coal, which was happening either way. Thanks to gas.

 

[wgmiller]

I tend to think his pandering to coal advocates was just another one of his many ploys to collect votes from a specific group. He smoked West Virginia with almost 70% of the vote and grabbed their five electoral votes. Extracting coal is labor intensive and compared to the efficiencies of natural gas extraction, just isn't feasible anymore. I've said it before and I'm sure many of you agree, but as a nation we need to be looking toward renewables and getting away from fossil fuels. If it burns it pollutes. It's that simple.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

wg,

I 100% agree with you, but money talks. If the renewable energy sources are not profit generators and job creators, no amount of science, forward thinking and reasoned discourse will win the electorate. Likewise, innovation and investments are mainly driven by profit motives. I do not agree with this, but it's reality. This election is proof of concept.

Not that it's a revelation but the Dems crapped the bed in terms of long term strategy. The down-line victories over the last decade + set up the gerrymandering of voting districts that allowed Trump to win the electoral votes but lose the popular vote.

In related news, the electoral college is about as functional as Standard Time / Daylight Savings Time. IMO, these anachronisms need to go! We also need campaign finance reform and congressional term limits. All these things create a perfect storm of negative results.

Bottom line: The system is broken. If we can get through he next 4 years with minimal damage, maybe this horrible election with 2 bad choices will serve as a catalyst for change.

(Disclaimer: I am an independent voter and thinker.)