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Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
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baiting at its best

Posted on: 2009/2/28 1:18
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Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2008/5/11 9:50
From Lancaster
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Jack, this situation pisses ME off! What's next? National parks? How 'bout we drill gettysburg.

Posted on: 2009/2/28 8:24
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Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2007/12/1 15:23
From wellsboro
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The Forest service can do nothing to stop this. The sierra club is wasting its time. The laws need to be changed to give surface owners some rights, because the way they are written now the subsurface rights are more important than the surface rights. if the forest service could control the drilling in the ANF, they would.

Posted on: 2009/3/4 16:17


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Does the state own the mineral rights to the state forests? I honestly don't know.

I know, for instance on the ANF, that the forest service does not own the mineral rights. The land was sold to the gov't with the stipulation that the original landowner has mineral rights, and if at some time they wish to drill or mine they may do so. There have been gas wells on ANF land for many, many years. Of course those wells don't compare in size to the Marcellus wells they're drilling now.

My opinion is that the existence of gas wells is not a terrible thing in itself. They can bring in a lot of money to a region, for relatively little environmental damage. But we have to make sure the environmental damage remains minor, because left to their own devices, the unscrupulous small companies will be first on the scene, and they tend to disregard things like rules. We have to be really careful. The DEP, watershed organizations, etc., have to get in gear quickly, come up with proper protections, and enforce those protections. Violations need to get more than a slap on the wrist.

Posted on: 2009/3/4 16:18


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2008/11/4 15:20
From Upper Saucon, PA
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Why should I be outraged that someone wants to open up some of our forests to drill for natural resources? Do I want clean water, sure, good hunting, sure, good fishing, yes.

But do I want to stop those who supply the very materials we require to live comfortable, and there is no reason to do that to begin with. Our forests can be entered, drilling can take place, all without the total destruction some like the Sierra Club claim.

Who causes more damage and is more of a threat to the United States, those supplying our natural resources or those fighting to prevent any advancement. The answer is simple and it isn't the oil and gas companies.

Posted on: 2009/4/10 17:05
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Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2009/1/3 13:51
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I'm still doing my homework on this issue.
Neighbors have been switching from fuel oil to gas, in anticipation of higher electric costs (although we had surplus production especially in the Pittsburgh area until that was marketed).

My two issues of concern are:
1. lack of control in the harvest of the unrenewable resource;
2. my continued need to understand what biological/electromagnetic roles that hydrocarbon depositions play in moderating environmental forces.

No. 1 issue - supposedly the Marcellus field in PA holds the promise of many years of local fuel for heating, etc. However, the export of the gas at high volumes would mean those many years could quickly turn into a few years and we'd be back at square one - both in terms of cheap fuel and Pennslvania's economic boost. And then we'd have all that cleanup to finance without funds. It's how we treated the North American forests, and now South American forests, and ... well every continent where relatively unbridled resource harvest/extraction has created boom and bust and environmental mess.

No. 2 issue is too far out there for serious debate. It's just that the way everything else that creates this environment on this planet on these land masses we call home is perfect for its build and rebuild; and deposition of hydrocarbons is a natural process for a biological community; and hydrocarbons are a natural insulator for elctromagnetic fields ... my mind contemplates what effect these past 80 years of tapping out these subterranean layers of oil, coal and now a multi-state region of gas may have had or may have on the electomagnetic stability of the surface - where we live and along our coasts.
Of course, I'm weird. I figure there's a reason/happy coincidence for low levels of ions in mountain streams, and high levels in low areas, other than it all flows downhill.

Posted on: 2009/4/30 20:25


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
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I thought I just heard one of the large bidders pulled out due to the high costs of running lines to all the wells dispersed over a large undeveloped area?

Posted on: 2009/5/1 11:03


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2009/1/3 13:51
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As far as the ANF, do Cornplanter's heirs hold any mineral rights?

According to "Indians in Pennsylvania" (pg. 172, revised 1991, Pa. Historical and Museum Commission), on January 29, 1791 the Pennsylvania Legislature gave three tracts to Cornplanter and his heirs in perpetuity, two of which he reportedly sold (swindled out of one), and the third - 600 acres, "... most of it on the west bank of the Allegheny just south of the New York state line."
The booklet, No. 5 in the Pa. HMC's Anthropological Series, doesn't mention if the third tract was sold willingly or was condemned by the federal government, but it does quote from the Historical Pennsylvania Leaflet No. 32, "Chief Cornplanter" (pub. 1972):

"Cornplanter's descendants and other Indians continued to live on the tract. The community had its own school and its Presbyterian Church. Eventually, however, the population dwindled as residents moved to the adjacent, larger, and related Allegany Reservation of New York. Residence became largely seasonal, and in late 1964 the last inhabitant left, permitting Kinzua Dam to be closed and the reservoir flooded. ..."

It doesn't mention if it was sold or condemned, or if mineral rights were forfeited and belong to the federal gov't., with it's apparent overturn of the 1791 Pa. Legislature's "in perpetuity" gift of the lands to Cornplanter and his descendants.

An interesting twist would be to know if any of the Nation members still living near the area could claim to be heirs of Cornplanter, and are legitimate owners of mineral rights there.

:)

Posted on: 2009/5/1 13:40


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2009/1/3 13:51
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There's plenty of background information ala tax dollars regarding this whole enterprise, courtesy U.S. Department of Energy, Office of Fossil Energy and National Energy Technology Laboratory.

An April 2009 publication, "Modern Shale Gas Development in the United States: A Primer" is posted on the Web sites of the contractors who provided the research, "Ground Water Protection Council" http://www.gwpc.org and ALL Consulting http://www.all-llc.com

In its own words, "The Ground Water Protection Council is a national association of state ground water and underground injection control agencies whose mission is to promote the protection and conservation of ground water resources for all beneficial uses, recognizing ground water as a critical component of the ecosystem."
“The Ground Water Protection Council provides a forum for stakeholder communication and research in order to improve governments’ role in the protection and conservation of ground water.”

ALL Consulting, apparently a commercial concern, doesn't describe itself on its still-being developed Web site, but posts the same Primer.

From the little I've been able gather, seems the main financial beneficiaries of this modern version of a gold rush could well be out-of-state entities. Even the hires, because of limited local expertise.

Posted on: 2009/5/1 14:33


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2009/4/1 21:52
From Johnstown, PA
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I'm pretty sure the last issue of "TROUT" from TU addressed the marcellus sp? shale drilling extensivly. and their position was very similar to the one they have on windpower, we need the alternatives but also monitoring and control over impact.

Posted on: 2009/5/3 9:12


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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The State Owns the mineral rights in nearly every acre of state forests, I'm not sure of SGL's but the Game Comm. probably has those rights on much of its land.
The problem is that once this land is developed there will be all sorts of pressure to keep the thousands of miles of roads that will be built, the pads may not be removed, the water will be polluted and the trout streams will be destroyed. Now I'm not saying this gas shouldn't be developed, but we can certainly make sure that it is done right. Return the land to what is was before gas development.
Each well will need a minimum of 5 million gallons of water to fract the shale and when it comes back out of the ground it is full of pollutants. As I see it that is the biggest problem, the second is there are only 2 places that are currently able to treat the water coming out, and much of the water will probably make it into streams.

Posted on: 2009/5/7 21:23
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Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
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Quote:

Chaz wrote:
The State Owns the mineral rights in nearly every acre of state forests, I'm not sure of SGL's but the Game Comm. probably has those rights on much of its land.
The problem is that once this land is developed there will be all sorts of pressure to keep the thousands of miles of roads that will be built, the pads may not be removed, the water will be polluted and the trout streams will be destroyed. Now I'm not saying this gas shouldn't be developed, but we can certainly make sure that it is done right. Return the land to what is was before gas development.
Each well will need a minimum of 5 million gallons of water to fract the shale and when it comes back out of the ground it is full of pollutants. As I see it that is the biggest problem, the second is there are only 2 places that are currently able to treat the water coming out, and much of the water will probably make it into streams.


The current slowdown should be used as an opportunity to allow some managed development to work out the issues and determine if it's feasable (from an environmental impact perspective) on a larger scale. Also to get the state regulations in order and to get affected state departments staffed and trained.

Posted on: 2009/5/14 13:02


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2006/9/12 21:16
From Suburban Pittsburgh
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This recent picture is from the East Branch of the Clarion River just below the DHALO section. Pumps sucking water out of the ANF streams seems to be more of a common occurrence up there these days. Over the past 3 years, I have seen more new roads with wells and rigs like this sucking water out of the streams to frac wells than I'd care to see.

Attach file:



jpg  East Branch Clarion2.jpg (0.00 KB)
100_4a15f36960625.jpg X px

Posted on: 2009/5/21 20:30
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Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

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2009/5/8 23:25
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Well, that picture is one of the ugliest things I have ever seen.

Posted on: 2009/5/21 23:07


Re: Drilling In State Forests Under Consideration Again

Joined:
2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13631
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speak now or forever hold your peace.

Posted on: 2009/5/22 1:11



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