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Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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If they try that, I'll happily plant some browns from the Letort in there.

Posted on: 2017/10/17 16:44


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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So, even if a geneticist/biologist was able to obtain data showing the brookies are not 100% hertitage strain (which is most likely, but not yet conclusive) I personally wouldn't deem them any lesser than a pure strain Brookie.
I don't think these fisheries can afford favoritisms over one type of trout over the other. After all, most of Big Spring below the C&R area is about fishless the whole way to the Mill, other than early season stockings. A stream of this quality should not have to rely on planted trout.
For me, what it boils down to is that upper Big Spring remains a stronghold for wild brook trout -pure or not. Even if there are a handful of other limestone/influenced streams that have Class A brook pops, some of them that I've visited, and each as valuable as any limestone stream, but not comparable to Big Spring which is (in fishermens lingo) a "true spring creek".

Posted on: 2017/10/17 22:24
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Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Here's the rub regarding a supposed heritage strain (of anything). Genes constantly change with each successive generation due to a variety of factors. There isn't a "pure" brook trout strain, it's either a brook trout, or not.

Some think there are Loch Leven or German brown trout strains in the wild, but only a brown trout born in Loch Leven, is a Loch Leven brown trout. A wild brown trout born in Pennsylvania, is a Pennsylvania brown trout. Even clones of Loch Leven trout are Loch Leven, unless they're raised there. An organism's environment weighs heavily on it's genetic makeup.

Posted on: 2017/10/18 23:00


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Steve,

I have to disagree. Genetics are genetics regardless of geographic location.

I can take an Irish couple from Ireland and move them to America. The baby born May be American but it has Irish genetics.

Posted on: 2017/11/25 10:44
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Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Gens do not change with every successive generation. It sometimes many generations to change. Of course it depends on what your definition of changing genes is.
For instance a stream with a high genetic diversity of genes is preferable to a it having a low diversity. And it is much better across the Commonwealth to have a high diversity of genes in brook trout. They presented information on this at the Wild Trout Summit and one stream came to mind that they talked about having a high genetic diversity is Elk Run. It's an important tributary to Pine Creek. Any stream with a low diversity of genetic diversity is vulnerably to having it's population wiped out by a single even.
Edit: I should probably rephrase that, the genes change but the DNA takes a very long time to change. Genes change but it's important that the ones that fire are the important ones.

Posted on: 12/1 12:02


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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They change with every generation. The Greatest Show on Earth, by Richard Dawkins, explains this well.

Posted on: 12/13 11:36


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Salvelinusfontinalis, completely wrong. Ireland is a place, red hair freckles etc are the result of gene expression. There is no such thing as "Irish genetics", only people that are from Ireland. Prefect example, if you have a black person that is born in Ireland, that individual is Irish. Even those with a long lineage who is still living in Ireland, is Irish, but go back far enough and an ancestor is probably a fossil in the African rift valley.

Spoiler alert: cabbages are our distant cousins.

Posted on: 12/13 11:44


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Incorrect. Rb1 is 70 times stronger in people of Celtic origin.

By your logic there are no loch leven genetics in browns either, that is a place andthere would be no such thing as loch leven genetics.

I get what you are tying to say, but every thing I've seen in genetics says otherwise.

Posted on: 12/13 16:34
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Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Lol, there is no Celtic origin, bc Celts came from elsewhere https://owlcation.com/stem/Irish-Blood-Genetic-Identity

Posted on: 12/14 12:50


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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And yet you can genetically test with in a 99.99 accuracy and tell if a person has those genetics. So much so you can tell the percentages or linage at each branch of their family tree...

We ain't one big race yet.

Posted on: 12/14 20:21
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Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Which means what, especially in regard to trout?

There isn't any magical strain of brown trout. Bc wild fish are not selectively bred by us, the genes that are best suited for the conditions will express themselves and outcompete the lesser genes.

Posted on: 12/18 11:45


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Quote:
There isn't any magical strain of brown trout. Bc wild fish are not selectively bred by us, the genes that are best suited for the conditions will express themselves and outcompete the lesser genes.



Had to go through my posts to see if I claimed a magical strain of brown trout, I did not.

What do I mean?

Quote:
Some think there are Loch Leven or German brown trout strains in the wild, but only a brown trout born in Loch Leven, is a Loch Leven brown trout.


Conditions suited best for cetain genes will express themselves and out compete lesser genes.....

So if loch leven genes do that in a wild PA stream, but are no longer loch leven genes simply based on location?

This is the part I disagree with. Perhaps a better question is, what do you mean? Maybe im dumb but I ain't following that logic.

Posted on: 12/19 9:01

Edited by salvelinusfontinalis on 2017/12/19 9:24:39
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Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Bc for some reason people want to believe that every large brown, or one with a sparse spot pattern want to call it Loch Leven for some reason.

Until a scientist isolates a specific "Loch Leven" gene that isn't found in other brown trout, it's just a place. With how long browns have been stocked and spread in the US, the idea that a "pure strain" exists is laughable. Even F1s wouldn't be Loch Leven if not hatched and raised in Loch Leven.

Posted on: 12/19 11:23


Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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Ok now I get you. Sorry wasn't trying to argue it anything just understand.

Posted on: 12/19 12:40
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Re: Ditch at Big Spring Creek, Cumberland County Pa

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No prob man. Havent seen you in awhile. Hope you've been getting out.

Posted on: 12/19 21:58



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