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Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2007/4/23 20:25
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DEP actually fined them for it. They said the design called for a sandbag dam not stone.

So if what they put in was wrong, why did DEP wait until it washed out until they issued a fine?

Posted on: 2011/5/23 18:41


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
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Quote:

pennsangler wrote:
DEP actually fined them for it. They said the design called for a sandbag dam not stone.

So if what they put in was wrong, why did DEP wait until it washed out until they issued a fine?


Are they required to get a permit for the coffer dam?

Posted on: 2011/5/23 19:02


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
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TYoung,

I gotta say, I am pretty shocked to see you claiming that the trout are all that matter on two separate occasions in this thread. Get real man! The stocked trout aren't a concern to me at all, but there are plenty of fish, animals, birds, insects, etc that use the hell out of pine creek from headwaters to mouth. Please consider more than just your fishing when evaluating environmental impact.

Posted on: 2011/5/24 10:54


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2010/6/30 14:13
From Lehighton, PA
Posts: 1382
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Quote:

pennsangler wrote:
DEP actually fined them for it. They said the design called for a sandbag dam not stone.

So if what they put in was wrong, why did DEP wait until it washed out until they issued a fine?


Oversight by DEP personnel is so sparse and in some cases downright lackadaisical, chances are DEP was unaware that the dam was not built according to specs until they were alerted to the washout. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to learn the oversight amounted to DEP approving a plan but no field inpsection ever taking place either during constuction or post construction.

Posted on: 2011/5/24 14:24
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Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2007/12/1 15:23
From wellsboro
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RyanR,
Do you have any proof to the DEP work being either lackadasical or sparse? Or is this simply your opinion? Since you do not even live in the Marcellus drilling region how often do you visit these sites to see DEP inspections?

Posted on: 2011/5/24 14:34


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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From Lehighton, PA
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Quote:

reds wrote:
RyanR,
Do you have any proof to the DEP work being either lackadasical or sparse? Or is this simply your opinion? Since you do not even live in the Marcellus drilling region how often do you visit these sites to see DEP inspections?


Absolutely that is my opinion since I wrote it. It's based on personal experience with the very same division that oversees Marcellus drilling activity. I have been in numerous meetings with them and a quarry over some serious dewatering issues on a wild trout stream. That's one instance where I've witnessed the extent of their oversight, or lack thereof. It was an eye opener for not only me but several PATU and chapter officers. In many cases a Friday afternoon after hours phone message from one of these operations to the DEP official is just fine with them. The creek runs dry for 10-20 hours on a weekend from their action and Joe DEP gets word of it when he gets back in on Monday and hears the message. This jerk actually said to us "They called though so its fine, and hey they restored flow by the next morning so I don't see a big problem." Even the PFBC knows DEP can't handle it which is why they are training there people now. If DEP accepts a voice mail as sufficient for an operation that results in several miles of creek running bone dry, I don't think its much of a stretch to think that perhaps they didn't actually see a small coffer dam as built. I didn't assert that's what happened, only that I wouldn't be surprised to hear it did.

I believe the Lehigh watershed has proposed drilling sites. Guess what, I live there. So does the Delaware, yup live in that watershed too.

Posted on: 2011/5/24 19:48
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Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
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Were you expecting DEP to babysit them 24/7? First I don;t think they have the resources to put an "agent" (for lack of a better term) on every well or dam site from start to finish. second, for those who claim to be against big government...it kind of hypocritical to expect anything more than permit or design approval and an occasional inspection at best. Personally I don't think it ever should have been approved. Perhaps those who constantly defend these water thieves and polluters would like to answer the previously posted questions.

Posted on: 2011/5/24 22:45


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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Quote:

tomgamber wrote:
Were you expecting DEP to babysit them 24/7? First I don;t think they have the resources to put an "agent" (for lack of a better term) on every well or dam site from start to finish. second, for those who claim to be against big government...it kind of hypocritical to expect anything more than permit or design approval and an occasional inspection at best. Personally I don't think it ever should have been approved. Perhaps those who constantly defend these water thieves and polluters would like to answer the previously posted questions.


I'm not sure but is that addressed to me?

Absolutely not, I would never expect 24/7 babysitting and I never intimated anything as stupid as that either. Of course they don't have an agent for every dam or well site, that was my point. I don't think it's out of line though to expect periodic visits, at least an initial inspection of new well or in this case the coffer dam after it was built. I don't think the phone call or voice mail system of oversight is cutting it. For sure they are understaffed but even so they can still do better in certain areas.

Posted on: 2011/5/25 10:41
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Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
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No, it wasn't but feel free to take it any way you want in the interest of discussion.

Posted on: 2011/5/25 21:54


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2009/4/4 8:58
From Reading
Posts: 600
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Quote:

pennsangler wrote:
The conditions of any water withdrawal permit limit the total maximum that can be withdrawn per day and has nothing to do with the total number of wells the site serves.

Every permit has a minimum stream flow number assigned to it based on total flow to a particular withdrawal location. Once the stream falls to this level, all water withdrawals need to stop. Not "should" stop, must stop.

The SRBC monitors the stream withdrawals and take into account the total withdrawal amount for a particular watershed.


I for one have a hard time trusting any governing agency when it comes to gas drilling or anything related to it. The politics in it is very deep rooted and the money and favors trading hands would blow us all away I am sure! Not to mention many of these agency's are to short staffed to monitor what is really going on. Are we really going to trust the gas drillers to stop taking water from depleted watersheds if one of their wells is in the middle of being fracked? I would think the companies would rather pay a small fine (if they were even caught) then stop an operation that would cost them millions of dollars. I don't live up there but I think I have as much right as anyone in the state to voice my opinion on this matter. That water or lack there of, or the crap that's in it, effects us guys down here believe it or not.

Posted on: 2011/5/26 8:52


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2006/9/14 16:53
From New Castle, PA
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I struggle with the water withdrawal issue for drilling. I'm sure when the first settlers set out to the West they were never concerned with water but now we know that water is a critical issue there. It is a finite resource and despite the talk of the high flows we experience, we now know that all of the water used by the drillers is contaminated and out of the picture for any future use be it for drinking, watering your lawn or for personal use. The have already discussed minimum required flows with our State officials and Fish Commission. This is PA, not California! Minimum flows, are you kidding! The drillers know what the future holds and the are preparing now with water withdrawal sites in almost any stream that can handle them. With the gauges not being funded, who and how will anyone know when its time to stop withdrawing water? The DEP? The SRBC? Oh, I guess the drillers can do a drive by and phone back to stop withdrawing water. I will probably never see dry rivers or difficult water times but at this rate my children and certainly grand children will be burdened with this problem

Jim Kearney

Posted on: 2011/5/27 18:35
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Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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While there are plenty of things to be concerned about when it comes to natural gas exploration in Pennsylvania, dry streams due to water withdrawals is right at the bottom of the list. Not only is there plenty of water in PA, many drillers are already reusing a majority of the flowback reducing water consumption up to 20%.

Posted on: 2011/5/27 22:21


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2006/9/14 16:53
From New Castle, PA
Posts: 85
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Not an argument, just discussion. As I said in my prior post, I am not expecting dry stream beds in my lifetime but in the future at the expected rate of drilling. Fishing Creek has many areas of dry stream bed in low water years, which has been every year lately, and will start sooner than in the past? Water is a finite resource and the demands for water will certainly increase in the future. Every gallon pumped underground for disposal is lost from the water table forever. The fact that minimum flows have been discussed by the drillers this far in the future of their exploration is very telling. I am not just speaking of fishing. Some municipalities have stopped selling to the drillers in the summer due to low water levels in their reservoirs. This with the fact that only a fraction of the wells are being fracked compared to the future demands. Once this water is gone its gone, out of use. Like I said prior, 50 years ago who would have thought that the Colorado River would be dry if all that had "rights" to the water would use them. We have discussion on this site frequently about flows on the Delaware River; is there enough water for drinking, fishing, rafting, etc and all the industrial demands on the river and these are uses that do not diminish the water supply. Gas drilling is a thirsty industry and we have not even scratched the surface of its impact in PA, especially, NC PA. We are supposed to think of the future, the next generations, I think money has clouded some peoples judgement.

Jim Kearney

Posted on: 2011/5/31 9:58


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

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2010/8/9 16:23
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Sorry, a little off topic (rather off topic from where the thread has gone), but someone posted that the dam was washed away a few days ago. Can anyone confirm this? Does anyone know how this impacts the withdraw operation?

Posted on: 2011/6/1 1:29


Re: Dam on Pine Creek?

Joined:
2008/6/25 9:41
From Pgh
Posts: 1235
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Quote:

trout17 wrote:
Gas drilling is a thirsty industry and we have not even scratched the surface of its impact in PA, especially, NC PA. We are supposed to think of the future, the next generations, I think money has clouded some peoples judgement.

Jim Kearney


Agree Jim. And in the words of an Environmental Resource Management prof I had many, many years ago at PSU,
"Economic prosperity trumps ecological protection."

(It's the only thing I remember from the class.)

Posted on: 2011/6/1 15:46
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"I used to like fishing because I thought it had some larger significance. Now I like fishing because it's the one thing I can think of that probably doesn't." --John Gierach



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