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Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2011/7/24 7:01
From SWPA
Posts: 66
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Missy,
I know, have spoken with, and been around many people involved in the industry and have never heard that kind of talk. most are hunters and fishermen and are conservationists also. I suspect you have a bit of an agenda because the Ron Gulla stuff is greatly exaggerated. He has an axe to grind with this industry. You can't believe what he is saying, it's just not true.
I know that because I am involved in ways with this industry that I also have an agenda, but there is a lot of bad info and hysteria out there.

Posted on: 2011/7/24 7:47


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

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2008/3/20 22:15
Posts: 1789
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It's not hysteria, groundwater pollution, water taken from streams that can't support the loss. water that is not treated properly before being discharged, noise, trucks too big for the roads driving too fast, noise and people who where poor that got way less for the lease then they deserved.

It's a very real concern. I hope what you say is true. We here are counting on it so tell the guys that you meet in the gas industry to take do their very best job and to take care of our homeland.


Posted on: 2011/7/24 15:00


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4490
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some folks I know attended a public meeting regarding drilling that will be occuring in their township. a lawyer from the drilling company was there to provide answers to peoples concerns and questions. as the meeting went on, people were asking good questions, the lawyer refused to answer them and changed his attitude for the worse. people left the meeting very uneasy, with lots of questions still unanswered, and even more worries. they told me the lawyer seemed pissed that people seemed to know so much, and had so many questions.
I think this is great, people are starting to get educated on this.
knowledge is power.

Posted on: 2011/7/25 19:16


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2011/2/17 19:56
From Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 57
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Gudgeonville,
First, I do not have an agenda. I just happen to be a concerned citizen who is watching, step by step, as the gas industry, that we aren't allowed to criticize, ruins the places I hold dear. Never did I expect to see so many wilderness areas, so many valuable places, changed in such a substantial way. I think you should ask yourself if you are not the one w/ an agenda, lurking around the site for over a year but now, over a year later, feeling compelled to participate in this particular discussion. Knowledge is power. Ron Gulla was profiled by none other than WQED. I trust WQED. He is on YouTube but the only concern I see is concern for his way of life being taken away from him. Should we ignore what he has to say? And if so, why? You defend the gas drillers. Good for you. Care to expand on that? Where do your interests lie? I know other people, some on this site, who have HEARD drillers say the same derogatory comments that were made by the guys that I reference at the Pirates game. So, don't be afraid of the information. I didn't create this mess. I just happen to be good at researching it.

Posted on: 2011/7/25 22:07


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

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2011/4/26 7:20
From Harrisburg
Posts: 687
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Quote:

Gudgeonville wrote:
Missy,
I know, have spoken with, and been around many people involved in the industry and have never heard that kind of talk. most are hunters and fishermen and are conservationists also.



I once heard about priests doing something with underage kids...but then again i also have an agenda

Posted on: 2011/7/26 1:26


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2011/7/24 7:01
From SWPA
Posts: 66
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Ron Gullas claims were investigated by the DEP early on. It was determined that the drilling did not affect his pond or his property. He did not agree with the science that proved that he was wrong and started his campaign against drilling. Ron Gulla was not a farmer. Ron Gulla was a landowner that made a very good living selling small construction equipment to the drilling industry. He also signed an agreement with the company that he eventually had a falling out with. I see and hear the hysteria everyday here in southwest pa. A couple of years ago, when Ron Gulla was in the news, there were claims that a certain stream in Washington county was emptied by Marcellus drillers. That never happened either. Just a lot of bad information out there on the internet. There is some truth, but this isn't the mining industry of the 1960's - 70's. The drilling for the most part is being done in an efficient manner with the environment and safety the number one priorities.

I apologize for lurking so long before speaking up and I do have an interest in this industry. I am a lifelong resident of PA and being involved with all aspects of drilling gas and oil wells for over 30 years, I do know a little bit about the industry. I am not seeing what is being reported on the internet, and I surely know a little about the way reporters are dealing with it.

Posted on: 2011/7/26 5:21


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2011/7/24 7:01
From SWPA
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all, I did not join to argue with folks that have been here for ever, i am a geologist with over 30 years experience drilling wells, have been involved with local and out of state gas companies, DEP, EPA, OSHA and just about everything else this industry has to offer. please look at me as a resource, if I can help with an answer about an issue I will, but I get frustrated with the bad information that is labeled as news.

Posted on: 2011/7/26 5:34


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2009/2/10 16:30
From SE PA
Posts: 5098
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Quote:

Gudgeonville wrote:
Ron Gullas claims were investigated by the DEP early on. It was determined that the drilling did not affect his pond or his property. He did not agree with the science that proved that he was wrong and started his campaign against drilling. Ron Gulla was not a farmer. Ron Gulla was a landowner that made a very good living selling small construction equipment to the drilling industry. He also signed an agreement with the company that he eventually had a falling out with. I see and hear the hysteria everyday here in southwest pa. A couple of years ago, when Ron Gulla was in the news, there were claims that a certain stream in Washington county was emptied by Marcellus drillers. That never happened either. Just a lot of bad information out there on the internet. There is some truth, but this isn't the mining industry of the 1960's - 70's. The drilling for the most part is being done in an efficient manner with the environment and safety the number one priorities.

I apologize for lurking so long before speaking up and I do have an interest in this industry. I am a lifelong resident of PA and being involved with all aspects of drilling gas and oil wells for over 30 years, I do know a little bit about the industry. I am not seeing what is being reported on the internet, and I surely know a little about the way reporters are dealing with it.


I chuckled when I heard those stories about drillers sucking streams bone dry. The truckers want to fill their trucks in a hurry and get on with the next load. What trucker is going to spend the time vacuuming the last water out of a stream when he can go elsewhere and fill up in a hurry? That story never passed the idiot test.

Posted on: 2011/7/26 7:49


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2009/5/29 16:32
From Nicholson PA
Posts: 295
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Gudgeonville i have some questions,1 what is going to happen with the Billions of gallons of frack water that is pumped under ground(will it stay there or is it going to slowly leach out)2 what about the shale layer that is being broken up will it settle causing seismic activity at a later date.Nationwide is starting to sell seismic insurance in are area.iI am no expert but i think these are pretty important issues.Not aiming this at you the tunkhannock creek is getting very low but still huge amounts of water is leaving and it does not seem to be anyone offical looking at it(Tunkhannock creek north and lower south branch).Thank you for your input.

Posted on: 2011/7/27 8:25


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

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2009/9/9 13:21
From North Central PA
Posts: 779
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Posted on: 2011/7/27 8:34
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Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13701
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MelvinP,

I'll still expect Gudgeonville's response as he certainly has more expertise than I. I'm only involved in the periphery of the industry, the material side (including supply and failure analysis), and it's only a small % of what I do. But it has forced me to get a more detailed look at how the process is being done, so I'll attempt to answer your questions to the best of my ability. Again, they should not supplant Gudgeonville's response if one is forthcoming.

Quote:
1 what is going to happen with the Billions of gallons of frack water that is pumped under ground(will it stay there or is it going to slowly leach out)


It will stay there. We're talking below sea level here. Anything above the water table would leach out, anything below wouldn't. And everything above the water table is protected by steel and concrete lineers to prevent contamination. That said, all is well ONLY IF everything goes well.

Some engineer has to evaluate the depth of the water table. There's a safety factor included, but errors in this could result in contamination above the water table, and errors could result from unknown fault lines, a screwed up test, etc. Further, steel and concrete can fail, especially under adverse conditions involving heat, pressure, and corrosion, such as what occurs down hole. Further, the installation procedures are non-trivial, and it's easy to screw up. For instance, if there's a poor seal at the bottom of the liner, fluid under pressure can rise up the hole on the outside of the seal. Further, errors can occur on the surface, such as accidental spills, busted pipes, etc, which puts frac fluid outside the confines of the protective layers. That's enough "furthers" for now, the point is, there are lots of failure modes and virtually all of them result in the possibility of contamination of the water table.

Reality tells us there will be some % of failures. You can reduce the danger by allowing the geologist to do more tests and thus giving him a clearer picture of the rock structures, choosing better grades of steel for the liner and piping, thoroughly testing all of the seals, training your workers more, etc. But all of this costs $. And nomatter how much $ you spend to fail-safe things you will never get a 0% failure rate. Never. There are always unforeseen failure modes. Call it once in a million, perfect storm, whatever. If a failure rate on this part is controlled down to 1 in a million, that's great, but what if you use a million of them? How much $ to spend preventing failures follows the law of diminishing returns. More money = more control, but you can't get to zero failures.

So what rate of failure is acceptable? 0.01%, 0.1%, 1%? Now, keep in mind, there are thousands of wells going in. You can do the math, but it is an absolute certainty that incidents of contamination will occur.

I fully support controls beyond the current status quo. So in that sense I'm not a "pro-drilling" guy, frankly I don't think they're doing nearly enough. But I also have to admit that it rubs me the wrong way when people (media, "anti" movement, etc.) take the most severe failure that has ever occurred and try to convince the public that it is the "typical" result. Painting it as a "danger" is fine. But Joe Schmoe, who has a well going in down the street, should not be led to believe that his water well and his favorite stream are doomed because sometime, somewhere, there was a case where that happened.

Quote:
2 what about the shale layer that is being broken up will it settle causing seismic activity at a later date.Nationwide is starting to sell seismic insurance in are area.


Good question and out of my area of expertise for sure. Looking forward to an answer from the geologist....

Posted on: 2011/7/27 13:31


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2010/2/18 8:57
From SW PA
Posts: 754
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Pcray,
Thanks for the information. I'm too in the same thinking that the worst case senario isn't the most common result. Still I am concerned.

Whats more as I had a fellow here this sfternoon explaining the my two neighbors, Ag-farmer and Cattleman, have OKed a well. This gentleman says I have rights to royalties as per my acerage (< 5 aceres). Please sign here... Ummm let me see...

Now what to do, as this online discussion, is now suddenly sitting in duplicate form on my kitchen table!? I'm pretty sure both neighbors who have reciently had other wells drilled, are in fact, in it for the cash. Is not signing even going to matter when my little slice of heaven is smack dab in the middle of 460+ aceres of leased gasland?

I'm a little hesitant to sign anything, I'm suddenly on the front line of the Marcellus Shale Gas War, and I'm not anywhere near informed enough to make a decision.

Dave

Posted on: 2011/7/27 18:54


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2009/5/29 6:40
From harlansburg
Posts: 4490
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Quote:
I'm a little hesitant to sign anything, I'm suddenly on the front line of the Marcellus Shale Gas War, and I'm not anywhere near informed enough to make a decision.


GET A LAWYER THAT IS KNOWLEDGEBLE IN THIS!!!! I've had soooo many people tell me the gas company rep told them they didn't need a lawyer. THAT SHOULD BE THE FIRST SIGN TO GET ONE!
a good lawyer will read the fine print that the gas companies rep tells you isn't important. don't sign anything, don't even talk to them until you have a good lawyer on your side.
and I'm no fan of lawyers(sorry jack and fade, nothing personal!) but in this case I think people need as much help as they can get. and it's just not about getting more money, it's about protecting your property value, your water, your way of life.

Posted on: 2011/7/27 21:46


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2011/7/24 7:01
From SWPA
Posts: 66
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Quote:

melvinp wrote:
Gudgeonville i have some questions,1 what is going to happen with the Billions of gallons of frack water that is pumped under ground(will it stay there or is it going to slowly leach out)2 what about the shale layer that is being broken up will it settle causing seismic activity at a later date.Nationwide is starting to sell seismic insurance in are area.iI am no expert but i think these are pretty important issues.Not aiming this at you the tunkhannock creek is getting very low but still huge amounts of water is leaving and it does not seem to be anyone offical looking at it(Tunkhannock creek north and lower south branch).Thank you for your input.


melvinp
the wells are frac'ed using approximately 100,000 to 400,000 gals of water per stage. Companies frac anywhere from 10 - 15 stages per lateral. After the well is frac'ed flow back (gas pushing fluids back up the well bore) begins to clean frac fluids from the formation. approximately 20 - 40% of fluids return up through the well casing and back into tanks for disposal or reuse. There are also production fluids (brines or saltwater) that are associated with ALL drilled wells. (even wells drilled 150 years ago here in PA.) Companies use portable tanks to hold initial fluid flowback. When well is ready to be put into production, there will be a battery of tanks on the well site. These tanks are for catching the rest of the frac fluids and production fluids that flow back over the life of the well. These fluids are confined to the shale formation for the life of the well by geologic overburden (weight of strata above the shales) and by interstitial pore pressure that holds the water/fluid molecules to the rock/formation itself. Fluid flowback has always been a problem for well operators because pipelines require minimal amounts of fluids to be in gas when moved to market. That is why it is so important to monitor and track your production so that fluid does not kill or hold back production.

The shale during fracing is more like prying cracks opened so that very fine grained sand (softer than any beach sand that I have seen) can be pumped back into the shales. while they are fracing, the pump pressure from the trucks overcomes the overburden pressure at the small perforations in the casing while the sand and water flow in, then after the the trucks let the pressure off, the shale section settles back down onto the sand grains allowing small fractures to stay propped open ever so slightly.one of the misconceptions put forth by the media is that there is an explosion downhole that causes huge caverns....this could not be further from the truth.

Hope this helps clarify some things, sorry took so long

Posted on: 2011/7/28 6:20


Re: Back against the well or wall as they say.

Joined:
2007/12/1 15:23
From wellsboro
Posts: 452
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Gudgeonville, Maybe it would be useful to provide the name of who you work for so people can weigh your employers environmental record in making decisions. All companies are not created the same and right now for every company doing things properly, it seems as though there is one having issues.

I have no issue with your posts and they seem right on from what I have experienced. Also, agree 100 % with Bikerfish's statement on getting a lawyer and require company to pretest your well at the companies expense.

Posted on: 2011/7/28 7:21



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