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Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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of course acid rain, didymo, stocking, amd, whirling disease, invasive snails, climate change, and shale development are issues for trout in PA. but we also have great streams and a natural reproduction list of thousands of streams. better to go fishing responsibly and be a trout bum than overdo the negatives and think too much like a trout bummer :)

Posted on: 3/23 10:41


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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I have not heard or read any claims that central PA streams are doomed by these snails.

The first thing I've read along those lines was the title of this thread.

Posted on: 3/23 10:51


Re: All central PA streams doomed?
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The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated.

Posted on: 3/23 11:14
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Re: All central PA streams doomed?
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FYI. Some facts about New Zealand Mud Snails:

The Situation: As the common name indicates, this invasive pest is native to New Zealand. New Zealand mud snail has had a long invasion history. It was first found in the United Kingdom in 1859, the western Baltic in Europe in 1887, the Mediterranean and eastern Europe were invaded in the 1950's. The snail has also established Australia and Japan. In 1987, New Zealand mud snail was found in Idaho (the Snake River). It has since spread through Yellowstone National Park, and is now found in Wyoming, Montana, and Oregon (1994). The Great Lakes were invaded in 1991. Genetic analyses suggest that the source population in the Great Lakes likely originated from Europe and invaders were introduced into the Great Lakes in ballast water discharged from transoceanic ships that came from Europe. The snail was found in British Columbia Canada in 2007, and the first record of this pest in California was from the Owens River which was officially confirmed in 2000. All western US states, except New Mexico, now have permanent populations of New Zealand mud snail.

The color of the snail shell is variable, and can range from gray and dark brown to light brown. The snail is usually 4-6 mm in length in areas that have been invaded, but snails can grow to almost twice this size, up to 12 mm, in New Zealand where populations are much lower. New Zealand mud snail is a nocturnal grazer that feeds on plant and animal detritus, algae, and diatoms. Invasive populations have an unusual mode of reproduction. New Zealand mud snails can reproduce asexually and female snails are born with developing embryos inside them. Consequently, all populations consist of genetically identical clones. In New Zealand, native mud snail populations consist of sexually reproducing populations (the males make up less than 5% of the populations) and asexually reproducing females. Each snail can produce around 230 offspring a year, and reproduction typically occurs during the spring and summer.

The Problem: New Zealand mud snail has likely been introduced into new areas by fishermen who have not properly cleaned equipment such as waders, wading boots, nets, and other gear. Because New Zealand mud snails are so small they are easily overlooked on fishing gear, and they are very resistant to desiccation. Snails can live for 24 hrs without water, and for up to 50 days on damp surfaces. This level of hardiness provides ample time for inadvertent movement of hitchhikers before they die. The snail is also tolerant of estuarine conditions and can live at depths of up to 45 m on solid and silty substrates. Once introduced into a new area, New Zealand mud snails can reach densities exceeding 500,000 per square meter. The exact implications of these incredibly high population densities are not certain. However, it is thought that such high snail populations probably have a negative affect on populations of other aquatic organisms, especially native snails and the insects and fish that feed on them. It is likely that freshwater ecosystems are adversely affected by such high populations of an invasive snail.

The highest concentration of New Zealand mud snails ever reported was in Lake Zurich, Switzerland, where the species colonized the entire lake within seven years to a density of 800,000 per square meter. Interestingly, these massive populations were not sustained, and a population crash due to unknown causes occurred. Consequently, New Zealand mud snails are not as common as they once were in Lake Zurich. A similar event was apparently observed in Denmark.

There are no known specialized natural enemies of New Zealand mud snail that have accompanied this invader as it has moved globally. Lack of predators, parasites, and pathogens has almost certainly promoted the invasion success of this pest. In New Zealand, the mud snail is attacked by 11 species of trematode, a type of parasitic flatworm, which sterilizes infected snails. This parasite may be important for regulating mud snail populations in New Zealand thereby preventing them reaching the incredible densities seen overseas. It is possible that host specific trematodes exist in New Zealand and these may be used to control pest populations of New Zealand mud snail if they can be shown to pose no risk to desirable native snail populations in areas that have been invaded by this pest.

Control of the New Zealand Mud Snail: Since there are no feasible eradication technologies, the first line of defense against New Zealand mud snail is containment. Since spread appears to be strongly associated with recreational freshwater fishing and wading gear, there are several recommended ways to reduce the risk of spreading New Zealand mud snail throughout California. Some suggested ways to decontaminate fishing gear include freezing overnight, or treating with chemicals known to be toxic to New Zealand mud snail. Many freshwater fishing websites have decontamination recipes for cleaning gear of New Zealand mud snail.

Link to source: https://cisr.ucr.edu/new_zealand_mud_snail.html

The New Zealand mudsnail has no natural predators or parasites in the United States, and consequently has become an invasive species. Densities have reached greater than 300,000 individuals per m² in the Madison River. It can reach concentrations greater than 500,000 per m², endangering the food chain by outcompeting native snails and water insects for food, leading to sharp declines in native populations.[17] Fish populations then suffer because the native snails and insects are their main food source.

Mudsnails are impressively resilient. A snail can live for 24 hours without water. They can however survive for up to 50 days on a damp surface,[18] giving them ample time to be transferred from one body of water to another on fishing gear. The snails may even survive passing through the digestive systems of fish and birds.
Mudsnails have now spread from Idaho to most western states of the U.S., including Wyoming, California, Nevada, Oregon and Montana. Environmental officials for these states have attempted to slow the spread of the snail by advising the public to keep an eye out for the snails, and bleach or heat any gear which may contain mudsnails. Rivers have also been temporarily closed to fishing to avoid anglers spreading the snails.[19][20]

The snails grow to a smaller size in the U.S. than in their native habitat, reaching 6 mm (¼ in) at most in parts of Idaho, but can be much smaller making them easy to overlook when cleaning fishing gear.

The snail tolerates siltation, thrives in disturbed watersheds, and benefits from high nutrient flows allowing for filamentous green algae growth. It occurs amongst macrophytes and prefers littoral zones in lakes or slow streams with silt and organic matter substrates, but tolerates high flow environments where it can burrow into the sediment.

Link to source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_mud_snail

Posted on: 3/23 11:18

Edited by afishinado on 2014/3/23 11:33:56
Edited by afishinado on 2014/3/23 11:35:08


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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Quote:

JackM wrote:
The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated.


A better analogy would be:

The rumors about people spreading rumors about your death have been greatly exaggerated.


Posted on: 3/23 11:43


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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Quote:

afishinado wrote:
FYI. Some facts about New Zealand Mud Snails:

The snail tolerates siltation, thrives in disturbed watersheds, and benefits from high nutrient flows allowing for filamentous green algae growth. It occurs amongst macrophytes and prefers littoral zones in lakes or slow streams with silt and organic matter substrates, but tolerates high flow environments where it can burrow into the sediment.


On PA streams there are some low gradient stretches, i.e. slow streams, with lots of silt.

And there are also areas with faster flows and more rocky substrate, with little silt. There should be less impact in those areas.

Also, filamentous green algae usually grows heavily where the streams are open to the sun, and much less where the streams are well shaded. One more reason to restore riparian lawns back to riparian forest.


Posted on: 3/23 11:50


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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hmm... assuming i do stay (don't all applaud at once) in my home state after retirement, and fracking proves "safe", and AMD/road runoff/no till farming stops destroying streams, THEN I'll have to come up with a snail pattern to fish at a snails pace to match the hatch! Modern Times Rock and Roll - ;)

Posted on: 3/23 14:31


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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I read your post and agreed with you fishidiot. There are more wild trout in Pa ( central pa included) then I can remember. Acid rain can be treated with limestone devices to keep wild trout stocks until the rain neutralizes in the future. Many high sulphur coal burning plants are gone so it should get better as some data is starting to show. I read who wrote the post after agreeing Dave.

Posted on: 3/23 18:06
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Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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So wait. Snails eat algae? Like Didymo? So we could introduce mud snails to combat didymo, then we can bring in those New Zealand parasitic worms to combat the mud snails (or Irish brown trout). Just like the song "There once was a lady who swallowed a fly..I don't know why she swallowed a fly..I think she'll die"

Posted on: 3/23 19:57


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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Yes, but acid rain is way down from what it was. But there is some belief that the effects of previous rain and current levels are continuing to deplete soils; reducing species diversity and tree regeneration. It was a bigger problem. That problem has not disappeared. It may be why , probably IS why some streams that were good in the past, like the East Hickory watershed and lots of other small creeks in the plateau will not support the bugs and fish they once did.
Syl

Posted on: 3/23 21:06


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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Paved Paradise and put up a parking lot............

Funny Mike, or it's the end of the world as we know it.........

Posted on: 3/23 21:20


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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Posted on: 3/23 22:52


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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Quote:

Sylvaneous wrote:
Yes, but acid rain is way down from what it was.


Boy, as Afishinado points out, there is a blast from the past. Acid rain. A "problem" that was hyped beyond reason as evidenced by the fact that it was "solved" years and billions of dollars ahead of time.

Bad news here is that snails are very sensitive to acidity so reduction of acidity has increased their ability to survive and thrive. Catch 22 imo.

Posted on: 3/24 1:20


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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As troutbert said, acid rain has been extremely damaging. And it's not "solved", although, it has been "improved" I guess, in that we're causing damage at a slower rate today than we used to.

The effect on watersheds is a cumulative effect based on the total amount of acid added to the watershed. So, we're adding acid at a slower rate than we used to, but still adding nonetheless. There's still work to be done. What has been accomplished was mostly do to advanced in scrubber technology at coal power plants, and the more recent improvements are mostly due to actually shutting down those coal plants in favor of natural gas fired electricity generation.

As it was expected, it has had a negative effect over a large number of freestoners. What's been interesting is to observe how much greater an effect it had on some, while other seemingly identical streams suffered only minor effects. And yes, that's largely based on geology.

Posted on: 3/24 7:56


Re: All central PA streams doomed?

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2006/9/13 10:18
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Acid rain has been here for a long time and went undetected. In the 70's and 80's, at its height the acid rain was as low as 3.7 ph, and is now around 4.5 ph. that is still lethal to nearly everything in our streams. It will not go away soon, but it can be controlled with treatment of streams,
There are 2 types of treatment, passive and active. In a passive treatment limestone sand is dumped into the receiving streams and the sand does it's work. Active treatment is a well or series of wells are built and stream water is piped or channeled to the well that is filled with limestone, the water flows over the limestone and out of the well into the receiving stream.
Some streams have both types of treatment, but usually it's one or the other.
As long as there are coal fired power plants we'll have acid rain. The one positive is that when a plant gets upgraded it is required to get scrubbers installed to limit acid deposition. It was once thought the deposition was far from the source, we now know it can be quite close. PA still has the highest incidence of acid rain and the lowest ph rain as far as I know.
Buffering that has been lost in regions that have acid rain is lost for a very long time, longer than any of us will be alive, so buffering is an ongoing problem. You can help by writing to your politicians when the topics of clean air and water are being discussed, especially if industry wants regulations relaxed. Clean air and water are the key to cleaning up the effects of acid rain. A clean environment is good for the economy. There are a lot of studies out there that prove it.

Posted on: 3/24 8:05
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