All central PA streams doomed?

S

Sylvaneous

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2 years ago I saw what I thought were New Zealand mud snails in Spring Creek. Now I see the posted warnings everywhere. I firmly believe that there is no way to successfully prevent them from spreading. 1000s of people going from one creek to the other : they will be spread. So is this the doom of all of these streams? Or is this like Whiling disease and isn't the end of rainbows as was advertised?
 
Too early to know.
 
How do we know how (and the what) the impact on the trout food chain will be if we see a population explosion of snails?
 
I wouldn't call it "doom". But it'll effect macro pops and thus perhaps change fish pop numbers, growth rates, etc.
 
It's funny, I fished above the paradise but there wasn't a sign there. No instructions what to do...you are correct though...people don't care and it is very sad.

I bought a second set of waders and boots this year so i can use my old one only on Spring Creek where I fished with them when I heard about the Mud Snail problem there.

I froze my boots and waders this winter...a good winter for it.

One guy was like...."why would you do that...if I take care...someone else will bring them so why go to the bother..." I know I don't want to be the guy that moved it.

Boss
 
Paved Paradise and put up a parking lot............
 
We need to pressure FF and fishing shops to put up wash stations and signs explaining the consequences. Also DCNR and PFBC should do this at access areas and make it mandatory to clean boats every time they are moved from place to place. Though with didymo it diatoms may be native to the watersheds or at least established long before the the evidence appears.
 
Don't know about the snails but fracking up north and raw sewage down here (thanks Camp Hill boro and the farmer who killed Green Spring....) are pushing us much closer. 90% sure I'm retiring out of state though a lifelong resident.
 
Doomed? Of course not.

In my opinion central PA trout streams - all things considered - are much better off than they were thirty or forty years ago. Invasives are, obviously, a problem...but our state's streams have always faced various problems. At the time they emerged, many of these threats were hyped way beyond what their impact turned out to be.

Those of us who have been fishing here in PA for awhile can well remember the outcry in the 80s about acid rain(!) and all the pessimistic prognostications about how this would ruin trout fishing by the end of the century(etc) across the state. By the 90s, Whirling disease was going to destroy rainbows within a few years. These and other threats all proved to be of only minor or local trouble.

If you think we're doomed and think greener pastures await you in a different state....go ahead and move (Montana would be nice if you can pull it). I'll stick around and continue to fish the trout streams in central Pennsylvania which are just loaded with wild trout.
 
Fishidiot wrote:
Doomed? Of course not.

In my opinion central PA trout streams - all things considered - are much better off than they were thirty or forty years ago. Invasives are, obviously, a problem...but our state's streams have always faced various problems. At the time they emerged, many of these threats were hyped way beyond what their impact turned out to be.

Those of us who have been fishing here in PA for awhile can well remember the outcry in the 80s about acid rain(!) and all the pessimistic prognostications about how this would ruin trout fishing by the end of the century(etc) across the state. By the 90s, Whirling disease was going to destroy rainbows within a few years. These and other threats all proved to be of only minor or local trouble.

If you think we're doomed and think greener pastures await you in a different state....go ahead and move (Montana would be nice if you can pull it). I'll stick around and continue to fish the trout streams in central Pennsylvania which are just loaded with wild trout.

Fully agree. People come from all over the country and world to fish the trout streams of PA. It's been that way for a long time and will continue to be. I plan on always having a place in central PA. One of the top ranking trout fishing states in the east and probably the country. Certainly not doom. Oh and as I've stated before on this problem... It's not just the guys that are fishing. Birds, animals, the hundreds of kids and adults that swim in the water every year, boaters, etc. Yes we need to be aware of it but just remember we, we are not at fault here.
 
Is drying still considered an effective deterrent? I rarely get to fish two days In a row, and even then, it's at the same place. I do have a dedicated pair of boots for the Breeches. They're felt, but that's the only place they've ever been used.

Btw, many of the smaller streams I fished in western Pa were supposed to be dead by the end of the 90s - they're still fishing ok. One near Johnston used the be orange from AMD, now it holds fish.
 
Acid rain decimated the mountain streams in VA. Wrecked them. The mountains must've squeezed all the bad water from the clouds before they got up here.
 
Fishidiot wrote:

Those of us who have been fishing here in PA for awhile can well remember the outcry in the 80s about acid rain(!) and all the pessimistic prognostications about how this would ruin trout fishing by the end of the century(etc) across the state.

Acid rain has been very damaging to trout populations in PA, in the areas of the state with weak buffering from the underlying rocks and soils.

These stream sections are not known to most people, because stream mileage with no fish at all, or few fish, and few aquatic insects, don't become "destination streams."

I don't recall people saying acid rain would end all trout fishing in PA. It's possible that some magazine and newspaper writers who didn't really understand the situation exaggerated things.

But in the 1980s, I think the information put out by the PFBC and other agencies, and the researchers at the universities, on acid precipitation made it pretty clear that the main impact was on streams in certain areas with infertile geologies.

The PFBC had articles in PA Angler, and they had a brochure they handed out at sports shows etc. that explained this in an accurate way.

 
troutbert wrote:

Acid rain has been very damaging to trout populations in PA, in the areas of the state with weak buffering from the underlying rocks and soils.
These stream sections are not known to most people, because stream mileage with no fish at all, or few fish, don't become "destination streams."
I don't recall people saying acid rain would end all trout fishing in PA. It's possible that some magazine and newspaper writers who didn't really understand the situation exaggerated things.

Fair enough.
I didn't mean to imply that acid rain had no effects. Certainly those effects existed, and still exist. The lakes of the Adirondacks
in particular are known to have continued problems with this.

My point, rather, was that different periods of time often see hyperbole and exaggerated predictions of the potential damage to streams and fishing from the newest bogeyman....and that these predictions are often that: exaggerations. Furthermore, I don't mean to minimize the very real threat posed by invasives. However, the title of this thread asks if streams in central Pa are "doomed." I contend that they're not. In the streams I follow closely, wild trout are thriving and continuing to be found in stable and often increasing numbers with continued surveys of many waterways (there are, of course, exceptions). Wild trout are doing very well in central PA, and in the Cumberland Valley in particular, they're experiencing something of a boom. Are there serious problems that deserve serious scrutiny and remediation? Of course. Are our streams doomed? Of course not.
Set aside the sentimental hand wringing and go trout fishing in central PA. It's wonderful.
 
I agree that central PA streams are not doomed.

We'll be saved by the gillaroo!

A colorful strain of brown trout from Ireland, whose diet is primarily snails.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillaroo
 
of course acid rain, didymo, stocking, amd, whirling disease, invasive snails, climate change, and shale development are issues for trout in PA. but we also have great streams and a natural reproduction list of thousands of streams. better to go fishing responsibly and be a trout bum than overdo the negatives and think too much like a trout bummer :)
 
I have not heard or read any claims that central PA streams are doomed by these snails.

The first thing I've read along those lines was the title of this thread.
 
The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated. :cool:
 
FYI. Some facts about New Zealand Mud Snails:

The Situation: As the common name indicates, this invasive pest is native to New Zealand. New Zealand mud snail has had a long invasion history. It was first found in the United Kingdom in 1859, the western Baltic in Europe in 1887, the Mediterranean and eastern Europe were invaded in the 1950's. The snail has also established Australia and Japan. In 1987, New Zealand mud snail was found in Idaho (the Snake River). It has since spread through Yellowstone National Park, and is now found in Wyoming, Montana, and Oregon (1994). The Great Lakes were invaded in 1991. Genetic analyses suggest that the source population in the Great Lakes likely originated from Europe and invaders were introduced into the Great Lakes in ballast water discharged from transoceanic ships that came from Europe. The snail was found in British Columbia Canada in 2007, and the first record of this pest in California was from the Owens River which was officially confirmed in 2000. All western US states, except New Mexico, now have permanent populations of New Zealand mud snail.

The color of the snail shell is variable, and can range from gray and dark brown to light brown. The snail is usually 4-6 mm in length in areas that have been invaded, but snails can grow to almost twice this size, up to 12 mm, in New Zealand where populations are much lower. New Zealand mud snail is a nocturnal grazer that feeds on plant and animal detritus, algae, and diatoms. Invasive populations have an unusual mode of reproduction. New Zealand mud snails can reproduce asexually and female snails are born with developing embryos inside them. Consequently, all populations consist of genetically identical clones. In New Zealand, native mud snail populations consist of sexually reproducing populations (the males make up less than 5% of the populations) and asexually reproducing females. Each snail can produce around 230 offspring a year, and reproduction typically occurs during the spring and summer.

The Problem: New Zealand mud snail has likely been introduced into new areas by fishermen who have not properly cleaned equipment such as waders, wading boots, nets, and other gear. Because New Zealand mud snails are so small they are easily overlooked on fishing gear, and they are very resistant to desiccation. Snails can live for 24 hrs without water, and for up to 50 days on damp surfaces. This level of hardiness provides ample time for inadvertent movement of hitchhikers before they die. The snail is also tolerant of estuarine conditions and can live at depths of up to 45 m on solid and silty substrates. Once introduced into a new area, New Zealand mud snails can reach densities exceeding 500,000 per square meter. The exact implications of these incredibly high population densities are not certain. However, it is thought that such high snail populations probably have a negative affect on populations of other aquatic organisms, especially native snails and the insects and fish that feed on them. It is likely that freshwater ecosystems are adversely affected by such high populations of an invasive snail.

The highest concentration of New Zealand mud snails ever reported was in Lake Zurich, Switzerland, where the species colonized the entire lake within seven years to a density of 800,000 per square meter. Interestingly, these massive populations were not sustained, and a population crash due to unknown causes occurred. Consequently, New Zealand mud snails are not as common as they once were in Lake Zurich. A similar event was apparently observed in Denmark.

There are no known specialized natural enemies of New Zealand mud snail that have accompanied this invader as it has moved globally. Lack of predators, parasites, and pathogens has almost certainly promoted the invasion success of this pest. In New Zealand, the mud snail is attacked by 11 species of trematode, a type of parasitic flatworm, which sterilizes infected snails. This parasite may be important for regulating mud snail populations in New Zealand thereby preventing them reaching the incredible densities seen overseas. It is possible that host specific trematodes exist in New Zealand and these may be used to control pest populations of New Zealand mud snail if they can be shown to pose no risk to desirable native snail populations in areas that have been invaded by this pest.

Control of the New Zealand Mud Snail: Since there are no feasible eradication technologies, the first line of defense against New Zealand mud snail is containment. Since spread appears to be strongly associated with recreational freshwater fishing and wading gear, there are several recommended ways to reduce the risk of spreading New Zealand mud snail throughout California. Some suggested ways to decontaminate fishing gear include freezing overnight, or treating with chemicals known to be toxic to New Zealand mud snail. Many freshwater fishing websites have decontamination recipes for cleaning gear of New Zealand mud snail.

Link to source: https://cisr.ucr.edu/new_zealand_mud_snail.html

The New Zealand mudsnail has no natural predators or parasites in the United States, and consequently has become an invasive species. Densities have reached greater than 300,000 individuals per m² in the Madison River. It can reach concentrations greater than 500,000 per m², endangering the food chain by outcompeting native snails and water insects for food, leading to sharp declines in native populations.[17] Fish populations then suffer because the native snails and insects are their main food source.

Mudsnails are impressively resilient. A snail can live for 24 hours without water. They can however survive for up to 50 days on a damp surface,[18] giving them ample time to be transferred from one body of water to another on fishing gear. The snails may even survive passing through the digestive systems of fish and birds.
Mudsnails have now spread from Idaho to most western states of the U.S., including Wyoming, California, Nevada, Oregon and Montana. Environmental officials for these states have attempted to slow the spread of the snail by advising the public to keep an eye out for the snails, and bleach or heat any gear which may contain mudsnails. Rivers have also been temporarily closed to fishing to avoid anglers spreading the snails.[19][20]

The snails grow to a smaller size in the U.S. than in their native habitat, reaching 6 mm (¼ in) at most in parts of Idaho, but can be much smaller making them easy to overlook when cleaning fishing gear.

The snail tolerates siltation, thrives in disturbed watersheds, and benefits from high nutrient flows allowing for filamentous green algae growth. It occurs amongst macrophytes and prefers littoral zones in lakes or slow streams with silt and organic matter substrates, but tolerates high flow environments where it can burrow into the sediment.

Link to source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_mud_snail
 
JackM wrote:
The rumors of my death are greatly exaggerated. :cool:

A better analogy would be:

The rumors about people spreading rumors about your death have been greatly exaggerated.

 
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