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Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2006/12/13 9:28
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Chaz wrote:
That's right, and as long as it's profibable for them to buy cheap coal and get water for free they will keep those power plants running if they aren't forced to clean them up. On the other hand how long should they be grandfathered, the Clean Air Act was signed into law 1972.


There should have been a limit established in 1972.

Posted on: 2013/8/6 13:38
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Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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PAgeologist wrote:
@pcray-I am not arguing against acid rain being the cause, or that acid rain doesnt exist. I am also well aware of the lack of good extensive buffering formations in western PA. The limestones in western pa are generally freshwater formations and have far less buffering capacity than the marine limestones in central/eastern PA. My problem with the article was that it didnt eliminate the other causes of a dead stream and jumped to the conclusion that it was acid rain. Perhaps he did his investigation correctly and didnt publish the data? Its poor science at best if he didnt at least explore other possibilities.



I have no doubt that acid rain is a contributing factor on those streams, but being a little bit familiar with those watersheds from years back, I had my doubts that the author was being thorough. It seemed to me like we was testing for a preconceived conclusion. IMO Salmon Creek watershed better fit his conclusions based on my own observations.


But I'm not a biologist and it was a long time ago, so I didn't speak up on that. Acid rain is still a problem. Thanks for speaking up PA geologist.

One thing to note is that his stream PH readings were lower than his own average acid rain PH readings. That threw up a flag right away. IMO, you can't contribute all that to concentration due to evap.

I've explored some of those streams, and anyone who says Millstone headwaters doesn't look a little bit red is color blind. Or was that Little Millstone. Doesn't matter, same geology.

I used to explore that area looking for native streams and found more than 1 that looked completely dead. Dead enough that I didn't bother wetting a line. They didn't have that crisp look that I am used to in a mountain freestone. It looked like everything was coated with crud.

I also saw places where red nasty stuff was seeping out of the ground where the entire bank is red and nothing growing on it. When I was a kid, we called it bog ore, and usually we assumed it was the site of an old well where the casing rotted away. Often it was, but some are likely natural seeps.


Posted on: 2013/8/6 14:06
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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Quote:

Swattie87 wrote:
TB - I've fished Swift Run...glad I stopped at the last picnic area! You could tell it was obviously stocked and fished along the road from the jack dam pools. It was early August and I struggled with spooky fish in low water, but they were there. Saw a couple larger fish that I assume were holdover stockies as well.

A stream that strikes me as being another one that suffers from poor natural buffering (but is not in an AMD area) is Tumbling Run (E. Branch Antietam trib) in the southern part of Michaux SF. While there aren't necessarily a ton of great streams in that area, there are many that have wild Brookies in them. Tumbling Run is a classic looking, steep, and fairly decent sized plunge pool stream...but there's no Brookies in it. Frustrating when you're looking at pretty much perfect Brookie habitat in every bathtub pool. The stream bottom on that stream is a very fine white gravel, bordering on really big sand in places really...which given the absence of Brookies I assume is a poor natural buffer against acidic conditions?


That is probably the case with Tumbling Run. Too bad. I found it on the topo map and it looks like its name is accurate. Lots of gradient.


Posted on: 2013/8/6 14:16


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2010/6/23 21:57
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FD,

I have seen many of the same things in the Upper Millstone watershed. While you would think that area would be decent for natives, many of those streams are just dead.

The whole watershed has gone downhill in the last couple decades. The main stem and east branch used to have lots of natives - I haven't seen one in years.

Posted on: 2013/8/6 15:15


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2013/5/28 12:09
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Well, if the Millstone watershed is worthwhile (if it meets our criteria), I may end up doing some projects there to get it restored some day. If it is part of the Allegheny or Ohio River basins its my area. Right now, I got a major one on the Blacklick in Indiana County and several others that I am a part of. Once some of those clear out, I will be looking to pick up some new ones.

Maybe I will take a trip up there soon to check it out just to get out of the office.

Posted on: 2013/8/6 21:28
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Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2013/5/28 12:09
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Tumbling Run I believe is underlain by a quartzite and/or metarhyolite formation - neither of which is going to provide a whole lot of alkalinity or buffering capacity.

Posted on: 2013/8/6 21:57
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Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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Quote:

PAgeologist wrote:
Well, if the Millstone watershed is worthwhile (if it meets our criteria), I may end up doing some projects there to get it restored some day. If it is part of the Allegheny or Ohio River basins its my area. Right now, I got a major one on the Blacklick in Indiana County and several others that I am a part of. Once some of those clear out, I will be looking to pick up some new ones.

Maybe I will take a trip up there soon to check it out just to get out of the office.


Trib of the Clarion so it is indeed the same Basin.

But IMO a more worthwhile stream would be Tobey Creek, the one in Clarion County. Not the one in Elk and Jefferson Counties which has already seen significant improvement. There has been some work done, but still a long way to go.



Posted on: 2013/8/7 7:19
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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Quote:

bearfisherman wrote:
FD,

I have seen many of the same things in the Upper Millstone watershed. While you would think that area would be decent for natives, many of those streams are just dead.

The whole watershed has gone downhill in the last couple decades. The main stem and east branch used to have lots of natives - I haven't seen one in years.


In the Millstone Creek drainage, what do you think caused the decline?

Posted on: 2013/8/7 7:27


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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Quote:

bearfisherman wrote:
FD,

I have seen many of the same things in the Upper Millstone watershed. While you would think that area would be decent for natives, many of those streams are just dead.

The whole watershed has gone downhill in the last couple decades. The main stem and east branch used to have lots of natives - I haven't seen one in years.


I looked at some maps and East Branch is the one I was thinking about. But there are also one or two on the upper part of West Branch closer to Marienville that are pretty ugly.

I can't prove it, but it looked to me like more than just acid rain (on east and west).

As far as declining numbers of natives over the past 20 years in East Branch Millstone goes, it is likely a result of effluent from white trucks if you know what I mean. IMO of course,

Note: I am not talking about he headwaters of East Branch. Bear is most likely way more familiar with that. I never fished it.

Posted on: 2013/8/7 9:29
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2010/3/10 9:38
From Brookville, PA
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Sediment is a problem in Millstone.

This entire area has pretty much lost the majority of its buffering capacity over the last 20 or so years when it comes to acid rain. Acid rain seems to cause a slow and steady death.

Many of these streams were never great for wild trout but they did have fishable populations. Its funny the stream on the southern side of the river in this area are all a lot more productive.

But as has been mentioned before the Clarion Watershed is terrible for wild trout so please fish else where! ;)


Posted on: 2013/8/7 11:36


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2010/6/23 21:57
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That was my thought on it - the soils have just lost their buffering ability to any sort of acid precipitation, or snowmelt runoff. While the increased traffic due to gas development might have some recent effect on it, this has been a problem for more years than that.

We had a spot on the East Branch that used to be one of our go to spots for legal-sized natives. Haven't caught one there for years now.

I don't think that the swamp helps much either with summer warming.

Posted on: 2013/8/7 13:11


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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Quote:

bearfisherman wrote:
That was my thought on it - the soils have just lost their buffering ability to any sort of acid precipitation, or snowmelt runoff. While the increased traffic due to gas development might have some recent effect on it, this has been a problem for more years than that.

We had a spot on the East Branch that used to be one of our go to spots for legal-sized natives. Haven't caught one there for years now.

I don't think that the swamp helps much either with summer warming.


The swamps certainly don't help with the warmup, but they do tend to raise the PH somewhat. Or so I have read. Chaz could likely comment on that. I know he has read a lot of studies.

That whole area kind of sucks when it comes to buffering. Even the man made ponds are too high in acid to product much more than stunted perch and sunfish.

Same is mostly true for the other side of 66.

Beautiful area, but kind of sterile.

Posted on: 2013/8/7 15:28
_________________
There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2010/3/10 9:38
From Brookville, PA
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yeah the entire area is terrible stay away stay away! You will never catch quality trout in the national forest its totally a waste of time to try! ;)

Head to around Pittsburgh I hear the wild trout fishing is awesome there.


Posted on: 2013/8/7 15:38


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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MHanes wrote:
yeah the entire area is terrible stay away stay away! You will never catch quality trout in the national forest its totally a waste of time to try! ;)

Head to around Pittsburgh I hear the wild trout fishing is awesome there.



Yea, or Ohio.

Posted on: 2013/8/8 5:40
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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance." -Henry David Thoreau--


Re: Acid Rain and Un-surveyed streams

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2008/1/31 17:19
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lol.

I'm not real familiar with Millstone, but do agree with you FD on the Salmon Creek drainage. That one would be worth a look too. There is one decent trib (Little Salmon), but just decent, not great. The Branch also has a few wild fish, but is far from good. But most of the tribs should hold brookies and don't, and the main stem itself won't even hold stockies for very long. And while it is overfished after stockings, harvest isn't the main issue. They leave. And you can verify this by fishing around the mouth, it is a non-stocked section of the Tionesta that becomes a hot spot a few days after they stock Salmon.

Ashame, too, because Salmon is a relatively large stream that has good structure and does stay cold. The Branch, too.

I don't really know that the problem is acid there, but always suspected it.

Troutbert, I too have fished Swift Run, with similar results as Swattie. It has fish, but it's not very good.

Posted on: 2013/8/8 9:47



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