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A fix too late that cant wait?

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2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
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River fix can't wait

Does anyone else think it might be too late? Im not saying giving up on this situation is the way to go at all. Seriously though, what will it take to save the river? 300 stream restorations on tribs of the River at 250,000 dollars a piece?

Im trying to remain positive on such a negative situation, but its fading.

Posted on: 2010/1/30 2:57
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Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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I don't think it's too late to fix it, but with developement from houseing, gas drilling, loss of riparian habitat on feeder streams and tribs, it will be an uphill battle.
it all starts in the tribs, gotta take care of those first. developers need educated, trees need to remain to shade the creeks, vegetation must remain along the banks.
at least its a start, hopefully the PFBC will get some legislators on board with them and get some laws passed to start turning things around.
of course, after spending millions of dollars to fix mans mistakes, something else will come along to compromise everything that was just done. we never seem to learn from our mistakes.

Posted on: 2010/1/30 7:33


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?
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From Dallastown, PA
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The answer is not far away....It will come in the form of an EPA mandate (or has come) called TMDL's (Total Maximum Daily Loads). The EPA through the Clean Water Act (1977) and an executive order in 2009 by President Obama have mandated that the states contributing nutrient enrichment to the Chesapeake Bay reduce such contributions to a max daily load that will theoretically improve the CB health.

These mandates to reduce Nitrogen(N) and Phosphorus(P) will focus on Point Source(PS) and Non-Point Source(NPS) discharges. Including Sewage Treatment Plants (approximately 17% of the current load) and other sources of discharge. It is likely that the costs of repairing or improving the ST plants would be impractical or not cost effective for the attainable result so there could be Nutrient Credits paid for to focus the effort on other sources (ie. NPS discharges; Stream bank restoration). Keep in mind many of the municipal ST plants are already in good condition. Some will be fit for repair and some left alone. But this is not all about ST plants.

Currenty there are literally Thousands of miles of streambanks in the CB watershed of PA that are full of N and P laden sediments. Thats right Legacy sediments. These N&P particles attach themselves to the sediment from up to 175 years ago that were trapped behind mill dams and now the mill dams are gone, the flood plains are grazed/mowed to the bank and storm events pick up these sediments by the megaton and distribute them downstream. Some make it to the bay, some get held up on the flood plain for future release. MOST of it gets deposited behind the numerous dams along the Susquehanna that are FULL or near full. The ones that have not been released yet can be "locked up" in modern streambank restoration methods or removed completely from flood plains....but as Sal said this costs money. Lots of it. Money that may be made available from the nutrient credits offsets.

Another contributor is agriculture itself, No-til farming, pour cropland contouring and CAFOS all contribute to the nutrient loads. in the form of stormwater runoff. Soon you will begin to hear the rabblerousing of your local governments as they begin to deal with these mandates to reduce stormwater runoff...and your local community housing developments who will have the responsibility to control theirs too. Older Indsutrial parks that have poor storm water management plans or none at all.

I believe that the largest contributor is the Stormwater effects on stream banks, carrying more nutrients to the stream, unlocking the legacy sediments through erosion and giving a double dose to the bay. you will begin to also see municipalities adopting riparian buffer guidelines for new development and encouraging the current poorly buffered areas to be improved.

But what about the dams....they are full meaning that the lions share of the suspended sediments are running over them because there is no storage left. Hurricane scale events scour these storage vaults of sediment and can literally wipe out any progress made in our Nutrient Management Plans upstream in PA.

Many of these NMPs and actions taken will be met with steep opposition. But the Fed EPA has more teeth than the local govs and can hold back their allowances so hopefully it will make a difference. Where does the money come from.....that a good question. And one I am eager to find out while trying to find it to improve my local watershed.

But I digress....this is about the Susquehanna....so the news is good that with the mandates by the EPA will force this issue to be addressed in the near future. Each and every state in the Chesapeake Bay Improvement Program will have these mandates. PA has a limit of near 75million lbs/day limit. We don't know yet what our goals will be or how those goals will be allocated for specific watersheds or PS discharges. But they WILL be coming and the Watershed Implementation Plans are due by 2011 with Drafts by 6/2010.

One other nugget....the CAFO's (hog and cattle farms over a certain number of head) may end up on the PS discharge list. I firmly believe this will be the largest contributing factor to the improvement of the Susquehanna River. I could have put this paragraph first but then no one would have read the rest.....consider yourself served.

Posted on: 2010/1/30 10:37
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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Good Post Maurice! I feel better already

Posted on: 2010/1/30 20:55
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Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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2009/1/3 13:51
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It's comforting to me that hope for improvement and mature, rational stewardship continues.

As far as the legacy sediments, I have learned over the years that most of the mill and water supply dams of yore did not in and of themselves contribute to the build up of legacy sediments.
The cause for the build up was failure to operate them properly.

Mill dams and most small water supply dams in PA with which I have been familiar were made to be flushed regularly, and maintenance was dropped, knowledge and management skills lost.

For Sal, a good example is the former pumping station dam on the Hammer Creek at the now State Game Lands parking area at the junction of Rt. 322 & Pumping Station Road.

When I was young this was one of the first places I ever fished.
It was a deep clear impoundment, and it was flushed (both the Walnut Creek dam and the Hammer Creek dam) regularly by the Lebanon authority that owned it.

Subsequently, after changes in its use and ownership to the Pa. Game Commission, maintenance (annual flushing by raising the gates) ceased. It filled up with silt, especially after the 1972 flood.

The Game Commission was at fault for failing to maintain it, or to eliminate it.

When it was breached, those tons of silt headed down toward Speedwell and smothered the fish-holding habitat below it.

That is just one, but there are many more examples of failure to maintain the intended function of those dams that created the legacy sediments, as they are now called. These didn't take 175 years to create. Much less.

Posted on: 2010/2/12 13:03


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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The other issue that has not received any attention is the devasting effect that subdivision of forest and farmland has had during the past 30 years.

When these tracts were intact, at least there was the chance that they could be managed for natural resource protection and conservation. Subdivided into small residential and recreational lots, there truly has been no serious effective consideration for historic storm water discharge integrity. Furthermore, any hope for natural resource protection and management on these once intact parcels is out the window.

I feel the blame lies with the same entities that created the savings and loan scandals, and the more recent housing and residential development loan failures.

But that's what we have when our national, state and local policies are not influenced by and for local communities, but rather by national and international entities that cling to the ridiculous notion that continues today: "best use = most money now."

A friend of mine this summer wrote me that he visited an old-growth forest on a large private tract near the ANF.

It's hearsay, but his information is that the woman who owned it willed it to the Vatican. They immediately had it marked for timbering.

A common strategy for recovering some of initial investment in wooded tracts intended for subdivision has been quick logging.

I fear it will take someone some time and effort to compile the data to prove sufficiently for political argument what an understanding and observant tour of just about any watershed will reveal.

In my mind, a change in the legal meaning of "best use" needs to be made, and more protection from subdivision needs to be adopted.

Posted on: 2010/2/12 13:25


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?
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Quote:

vern wrote:


In my mind, a change in the legal meaning of "best use" needs to be made, and more protection from subdivision needs to be adopted.


Vern, Mandatory BMP's will balance Best Use and the Adoption of Riparian Buffer ordinances will help control the Subdivision issue. As aI said above, there are being worked on now locally....hopefully, and will be drafted by 6/2010. Final Implementation Plans due by 2011.

If you live inthe Chesapeake Bay Watershed, go to your local municipality meeting and ask what they are doing so far. Perhaps offer to help in the capacity of an advisor....most are scared to death of these issues. But they will need to face the music within the year.

Posted on: 2010/2/12 13:39
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Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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2009/6/11 1:27
From York, PA
Posts: 1415
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Does anyone else think it might be too late? Im not saying giving up on this situation is the way to go at all. Seriously though, what will it take to save the river? 300 stream restorations on tribs of the River at 250,000 dollars a piece?

Even spending all this money, it really won't help. And sending letters to the folks in charge........ don't make me laugh!! You will be just wasting paper. They won't read them, just toss in the trash and save the stamps.
Too many people and too many buildings on every square inch of ground.
Now the Chesapeake Bay is over 40% dead zone!! Even the crabs are dying from all the filth on the bottom now.
I saw the change coming years ago. I was one of the first to catch >100 smallmouth a day with a fly rod. I would fish the same areas as Bob Clouser, and catch much more than he or his clients ever did! LOL
Upstream from the Statue of Liberty was a clean gravel bottom paradise then. I could see bass everywhere everytime I went out.
Now it's a mud bottom with snot grass and slime everywhere. With all the pollution the bass are Unisexing, and can't breed anymore. What few bass and rockbass remain have infections and sores on them.
A tiny change in laws won't help now.
On the brite side: Dave Whitlock said "carp on a flyrod is the last freshwater frontier"
The carp don't mind a polluted river that much!! Even the great Bob Clouser only fly fishes for carp in the Susquehanna now!! The "Freshwater Bonefish"

Posted on: 2010/2/14 0:29


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13629
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Quote:

1wt wrote:

I saw the change coming years ago. I was one of the first to catch >100 smallmouth a day with a fly rod. I would fish the same areas as Bob Clouser, and catch much more than he or his clients ever did! LOL
Upstream from the Statue of Liberty was a clean gravel bottom paradise then. I could see bass everywhere everytime I went out.
Now it's a mud bottom with snot grass and slime everywhere. With all the pollution the bass are Unisexing, and can't breed anymore. What few bass and rockbass remain have infections and sores on them.


And you let it go to heck...shame on you. Maybe if you had written a letter or two or picked up the phone or driven to a local reps office rather than complaining how nothing ever gets done, this wouldn't be the case. If I had had a chance to make a difference and blew it I wouldn't be telling others to just give up and not try.

Posted on: 2010/2/14 10:57


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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2009/6/11 1:27
From York, PA
Posts: 1415
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Maybe if you had written a letter or two or picked up the phone or driven to a local reps office rather than complaining how nothing ever gets done, this wouldn't be the case.

It's too many people, Tom! Too many flushing their toilets for the overworked sewage systems and no more deep rooted grass to absorb the rain water...... it's all concrete now!
I can't complain because I'm a Christian. Could I write letters saying "everyone should have abortions to stop the over population" or "closed borders to everyone.... America is too crowded already" or "no new houses or buildings built, we already have too many"
This is what it would take if we could go back in time. But even doing this now is too late for the smallmouth!!
Canada is a bigger country than the US, and they only have 30 million folks. We are smaller with over 300 million folks. If you like fishing for smallmouth bass, then go north young man!! Go north!!

Posted on: 2010/2/14 13:56


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
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Quote:

1wt wrote:

I can't complain because I'm a Christian.


WTF does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Man, you have a lot of excuses for not doing things. They aren't allowed to dump raw sewage into rivers no matter how many people live along the river. Go north...or find the reason for the problem and fix it. Why run away from the problem and abandon a water you claim to care about. Unless you don't really care about it now that it no longer meets your needs. Nothing is hopeless as long as you don't quit.

Posted on: 2010/2/14 14:06


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

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2009/6/11 1:27
From York, PA
Posts: 1415
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WTF does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

You sound like a Pro Lifer, not me! I'm a proud Christian, what's wrong with that?
Do you want folks to have abortions to keep the population down? Or do you take kids fishing and build near the river? It's really a wrong choice that many have made and now it's time to pay the price.

"Judge snot, lest ye be judged"

Posted on: 2010/2/14 14:31


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

Joined:
2006/9/10 21:53
From Greensburg, PA
Posts: 13629
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Quote:

1wt wrote:


You sound like a Pro Lifer, not me!

You obviously know nothing about me and should either ask or stop guessing and making a fool of yourself.



Quote:
I'm a proud Christian, what's wrong with that?


I never said there was anything wrong with that. I just don;t understand what it has to do with whether you take action against pollution or not.


Quote:
Do you want folks to have abortions to keep the population down?

This question is irrelevant to the topic. If you want to discuss abortion you should go to the Off Topic section and start a discussion.


Quote:
Or do you take kids fishing and build near the river?


I take kids fishing...I do not live near a river. I also do not see how they are related.


Quote:
It's really a wrong choice that many have made and now it's time to pay the price.

I would not build near the river but you don't have to live near a river to impact it negatively. No need to pay any price. You just have to make adjustments.

Quote:
"Judge snot, lest ye be judged"

Read what you wrote and ask yourself who is judging who.

Posted on: 2010/2/14 14:38


Re: A fix too late that cant wait?

Joined:
2006/9/9 17:18
From lancaster county
Posts: 6489
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the breakdown of being owned

Posted on: 2010/2/14 14:46
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Re: A fix too late that cant wait?
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From Dallastown, PA
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The susquehanna in the middle/lower section (liverpool to Maryland) just 10 years ago and up to 8 years ago was one of the highest yeilding SMB waters in the country. In order to figure out whats wrong with it all you have to do is figure out what changed in the past ten years.

Central PA Population increase

Development of infiltration areas with poor storm water management plans causing accellerated erosion of streambanks.

Corporate farm increase

Drought/flood frequency

I pick the lower two as a combination for the major contributing factors for the collapse.

Posted on: 2010/2/14 19:15
_________________
Don't hit me with them negative waves so early in the morning. Think the bridge will be there and it will be there. It's a mother, beautiful bridge, and it's gonna be there. Ok?



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