tippet visibility and floatant

[mikesl]

Newbie question about tippet visibility:

I was trying to fish a BWO dry and emerger tandem on Valley last week.

noticed that the tippet was resting on top of the surface in a way that was "denting" the water, and would probably be VERY visible from below.

Is it right to assume that keeping the tippet near the fly free of floatant and finger grease is a pretty important thing? Is it typical to apply leader sink fluid?

Should I be trying to get the last 12" or so of tippet to sink into the water cleanly to keep it less visible?

Typing it out, seems like I may be answering my own question, but jut wondering what is common practice.

Thanks

FWIW, tippet was 7x fluoro

 

[PennKev]

You are right, you usually don't want the last couple feet of tippet floating noticably on the surface.

Just get a pinch of mud from the bank or stream bottom and rub it on the tippet to get it to sink. The sink fluids are mostly a rip-off.

Kev

 

[osprey]

In my own travels it seems as if the last six inches or so is left untreated , that is enough , feet of tippet sinking would create drag , a couple or six inches seems to work for me.

 

[pcray1231]

In my experience, "seeing" the tippet isn't really the problem. You can tie a freakin rope onto that fly and the fish will take it just fine, so long as the rope isn't attached to the end of a rod or otherwise causing an unnatural drift.

Drag is the issue. Now, it could be drag induced by the tippet on the fly, or it could be dragging the tippet across the water surface in an unnatural way. Either will do you in.

The question of whether you want your tippet floating or sunk near the fly is thus a good one. Floating induces less drag on the fly. But sinking would hide the tippet dragging across the surface effect. I've always leaned towards wanting my tippet to be floating as high as possible. And for that reason, I tend to stay away from fluoro for dries, especially for small dries. It's stiffer, and it's denser and sinks more. Both are bad for drag. I have far more success with supple, mono tippets when fishing small dry flies.

Nymphing/streamers are a different story altogether.

 

[PENZZZ]

I'm in complete agreement with pcray. Rarely do I use even 6x tippet, resorting to 6x only for very small flies. My choice of tippet is Maxima Chameleon. To me, tippet diameter is blamed too often when trout fail to take our offerings.

 

[Chaz]

Whenever possbile I want the tippet floating when fishing a dry fly.

 

[mikesl]

Thanks guys

Will grab the mono 7x tippet on dries and not worry as much about the floating tippet - though the surface dimpling i saw was pretty extreme and didn;t seem helpful -

maybe i can buy a jar of mud for $7 somewhere

 

[ratgunner]

pcray is right but I still don't grease the last 6" of tippet unless I'm skating a fly across the surface like a caddis for example.

 

[DGC]

Breaking down the variables (sunk, floating, flouro, mono, stiff, soft, 5X, 6X, etc.) the most important contributor to success will be to reposition myself in relation to the target to get "better" drifts. It is almost certain that for any given drift, the same tippet will be more visible than on other drifts irresptective of brand. On one drift the sun catches it just right and the thing sparkles. On a slightly different drift from another angle it may be barely visible. Whether that makes a difference in addition to less drag after you reposition, no one knows for sure.

 

[mikesl]

The drifts were certainly not perfect, i just had to wonder, given what i have read (especially for small flies) that some of what the trout see from below is how the dry fly "deforms" the surface film - having 12" of tippet deform the surface film seems like it gives the same effect as having a 12" antenna tied to the front of the fly - which i am sure would be frowned upon.

Did i read correctly that intentionally greasing tippet with floatant is common and doesn't seem to reduce takes?

because that would certainly poke holes in my theory.

maybe it is a case of trout vision ignoring extraneous stuff... I've heard it said that as long as the necessary buggy bits of fly are there, "extra" stuff (like hooks) get ignored

but now we are deep into trout vision psychology

 

[dryflyguy]

I've always greased my tippet with mucilin paste - right up to the fly.
It's what I was taught to do from way back
And really haven't had any problems getting takes - at least that I would blame on floating tippet, anyway.
As others have mentioned - the big thing is getting a drag free float.

As for what the trout really see - I would recommend reading "In The Ring Of The Rise" - by Vince Marinaro

 

[PENZZZ]

Someone can correct me on this if they have the proper information. I believe Vince Marinaro discussed this subject in his book 'A Modern Dry Fly Code'. He and his fishing friends wondered whether a visible leader turned off trout, or whether trout refusals had more to do with drag imparted on the fly by the line and leader. They used a very stout leader material and tied four inch sections to the eyes of several reliable flies. As the story goes they dropped flies, one by one, onto the currents leading downstream to several surface feeding trout. And one by one each fly was sipped in by the trout. Their conclusion was that the trout were unconcerned with very thick leader material, as long as the flies floated naturally on the currents.

I don't have a copy of MDFC so can't verify the story.

Jeff

 

[Phish_On]

Drag free. I don't treat my tippet at all. Never had any problems.

 

[djs12354]

mikesl wrote:


maybe i can buy a jar of mud for $7 somewhere

Mike,

I'm currently running a special on mud - one baby food jarful, shipping included for $5........ ;-)

Dave

 

[dryflyguy]

PENZZZ wrote:
Someone can correct me on this if they have the proper information. I believe Vince Marinaro discussed this subject in his book 'A Modern Dry Fly Code'. He and his fishing friends wondered whether a visible leader turned off trout, or whether trout refusals had more to do with drag imparted on the fly by the line and leader. They used a very stout leader material and tied four inch sections to the eyes of several reliable flies. As the story goes they dropped flies, one by one, onto the currents leading downstream to several surface feeding trout. And one by one each fly was sipped in by the trout. Their conclusion was that the trout were unconcerned with very thick leader material, as long as the flies floated naturally on the currents.

I don't have a copy of MDFC so can't verify the story.

Jeff

It was George Harvey who did that experiment

 

[PENZZZ]

LOL.. Guess it's been too many years since I read about it.

A quick bit of research this morning (I don't have the actual Harvey material) inticates that it was beetles Harvey used in his experiments (said to be multiple experiments). The references I was able to find varied somewhat, including the references to the length of tippet used. The references also differed in that some stated George gluded tippet to the beetles, some indicated he "inserted" the tippet into the beetles. The meaning of the experiments remains the same, to learn whether trout would be put off by a length of tippet extending away from the trout food. Apparently, they weren't.

Choose an appropriate fly and cast well.

Jeff

 

[midnightangler]

If you use a no-slip loop knot it will help you get away with thicker tippet. Clinch knots are very rigid and can manhandle small flies and impact the natural drift.

 

[pcray1231]

Yeah, it was Harvey. I'll have to dig it up this evening, but the story appeared in his book "memories, patterns, and tactics". My recollection could be off, but what I'm recalling was Japanese beetles from a trap. Gluing different size and length of tippet, twine, etc on there, and tossing them into Spring Creek to see what would happen. And the answer was that they were eaten just the same nomatter what was attached.

Lots of things float overhead. They pick out bugs from floating masses of grasses and so forth. Fish simply aren't spooked by tippet, so long as it's moving naturally with the current. But pressured fish especially, if anything looks to be floating UNNATURALLY, it's a problem.

 

[Chaz]

I can't say I've ever had issues with tippet shy trout, I always believed what folks thought were tipper shy trout were trout refusing because of drag on the fly or just the wrong fly.

 

[barbless]

I think that tippet that's too heavy definitely tends to impede the natural drift of a fly, particularly a dry fly. Micro-drag is still too much drag, especially in the case of a tiny fly. Not as much of an issue with caddis or large terrestrials.

A dragging floating tippet sends out ripples that look at least as bogus as a dragging fly. But a sinking tippet may get caught in the water column and disturb the drift, too. I usually grease my entire leader. I think either way, with dry flies the fish can usually see the tippet.

The big question I have: how many times can you put a fly past a rising fish without tipping it off that someone is trying to put them on? I often get the impression that my repeated efforts don't really spook a fish or get it to stop rising. It's more like after a while they're just shaking their head and saying "give me a break"... especially if they've already short-struck at the fly, or I've missed the take.

The hardest thing about fly fishing for me is hooking a fish when it takes. I can't figure out whether I'm doing it too fast or too slow. My guess is that it's neither of those things- it's that I react with too much drama, yanking instead of tugging. It will take some doing to break that habit. I know a medicine that helps, but presently I'm not allowed to take it.