Valley Creek and Strike Indicators

[thebassman]

I didn't know exactly where to post this.

I am planning on taking a little trip to Valley Creek this Saturday and am torn on what rod(s) to take. I was curious if a strike indicator would spook fish and turn them off, or if I should bust out the 10ft tenkara rod and high stick the runs.

I know the fish are skittish, and don't want to be ruined by an indicator and my small 3wt.

Every time I have fished Valley it has been on top, or after a rain and throwing small streamers.

 

[jrj]

Bassman - i usually fish Valley with a 7' 3wt. If i am fishing with an indicator it is a small airlock float. Have not seen it spook anything.

 

[thebassman]

I have some loon strike putty I can make into a pretty small indicator. I also have some of the smallest thingamabobbers, but even those I feel might be to large.....maybe I am just overthinking how easily spooked these fish are.

 

[JerryC]

When I fish Valley, I usually drift small nymphs/woolly buggers as droppers off a size 12 or 14 CDC and Elk.

 

[govtmule]

Here's a thought...try it yourself and see what happens....

 

[jacob]

gov'tmule.... not helpful at all. you should keep comments like that to yourself and off the forum since we try to foster a supportive community here.

In an attempt to HELP and answer your question - I fish valley all of the time. 7"6' 3 wt and I typically use HALF of a foam oval stick on indicator, orvis type if I am nymphing. Sometime even a quarter of one.

I have definitely spooked fish with it, usually due to a less than ideal cast or a particularly skittish fish. It has a lot to do with the personality of the fish and they are all different. You'll find the bigger guys are more (really) spooky than the smaller fish- they know what's up. Some will spook really easy, others you could cast to all day.

I would try different indicators out and figure out what works for you. I don't suggest a thingamabobber unless you are fishing bigger water - they just splat too much for a tiny creek like valley. I only go to the bobber if Im fishing heavy current and heavy flies on bigger water where you have more of a spook buffer.

I've tried new zealand's, dry dropper, foams, you name it. Dry dropper is best IMO, but if you are trying to fish a couple nymphs and no dries I'd say give the foam ones a try. They are my personal go to.

Just rip em in half, or even a quarter if fishing small nymphs that aren't going to sink it (the 1/4). You'll find the full foam is not necessary most of the time and you can get away with less.

To add to this - I would fish a dry dropper 100% of the time if I wasn't throwing two nymphs. Usually when I figure out what nymph they are taking consistently, I'll switch over to the dry dropper with the productive nymph. Only reason I don't fish the dry dropper 100% on valley is having to constantly change the tippet between the dry and the dropper to adjust for the depth of different pools. The stick on you can slide on your leader a few times before it loses it's effectiveness, so I opt for that if there isn't considerable surface feeding.

Hope that helps! Good luck out there.

 

[govtmule]

Jacob.....relax buddy....and I'm serious, try it and see what happens...you may actually learn something

 

[CLSports]

Seems like Jacob is saying the same thing as Govtmule, just in more words.

It is not really the indicator that spook the fish so much as the not so stealthy fisherman.

 

[afishinado]

thebassman wrote:
I have some loon strike putty I can make into a pretty small indicator. I also have some of the smallest thingamabobbers, but even those I feel might be to large.....maybe I am just overthinking how easily spooked these fish are.

Guys caught fish before indicators were "invented"....

Don't make a bobber out of strike putty; try rolling a little on your tippet knot and in a couple of spots up the leader just to color it up for visibility. Less is more. The stealthiest thing to use is bright colored mono or even backing to make a sighter and tie it in just above your tippet section.

Fish upstream, but try to angle your casts and mend if necessary, to prevent your line and leader from floating over the fish.

Always try to keep as much line and leader off the water as possible (a longer rod helps).

Approach the section of stream cautiously and fish near to far. Fish from the bank first and slowly lengthen out your casts and wade if necessary to cover the water. To put it another way, don't boom a cast over unseen fish that may be close by and spook the pool or run before you have a chance to fish it out.

Pretend you're at Sunday Mass and kneel down to the fish Gods...they like that and ye shall be rewarded.

Finally, at this time of year, and in low and clear water...go small or go home.

Good luck.

 

[Fredrick]

All good points from afish , another option of an indicator that lays softly on the water and doesn't spook many fish is the New Zealand Strike Indicator

 

[jacob]

Jacob.....relax buddy....and I'm serious, try it and see what happens...you may actually learn something

I apologize, as I took your comment in a much different tone than what I believe you intended - my bad.

As it was pointed out, we really were saying the same thing, more or less.

Just go out and try some different things and find out what works for your personal style!

 

[jeremymcon]

It's not as easy to adjust as some indicator systems, but have you considered a dry-and-dropper? It can be very subtle, and is my preferred method of nymphing in low, clear water. I usually use a #12-14 poly wing caddis (it's tied with a poly yarn wing - I use a product called "congo hair" from fly tyer's dungeon) or a fairly bushy adams or parachute adams. Tie the dry on with 3x or 4x, then tie the nymph off the bend of the dry fly with lighter tippet (so that you don't lose both flies when the nymph gets snagged someplace you can't retrieve it).

Every other indicator system I've tried has spooked fish at one time or another. You could also try fishing no indicator at all. Just be sure to cast as close to directly upstream as you can, otherwise you'll have trouble detecting strikes.

 

[henrydavid]

"Don't make a bobber out of strike putty; try rolling a little on your tippet knot and in a couple of spots up the leader just to color it up for visibility. Less is more. The stealthiest thing to use is bright colored mono or even backing to make a sighter and tie it in just above your tippet section."

Thank you very much, excellent advice.

 

[FiveWeight]

govtmule wrote:
Here's a thought...try it yourself and see what happens....

Good one. LOL Perfect answer. How did one ever fish before the internet? LOL

 

[pcray1231]

If it's up, I'll use a strike indicator on valley. But in typically low flows, I usually do a dry dropper. It's a perfect dry dropper stream. Not too deep or fast, so you don't need much weight.

And I'm a guy who likes to ditch indies. Just not there. Can't get close enough to high stick.

 

[bsullivan]

Hi guys. I have fly fished twice, ever, on a recent trip to Patagonia. Pretty amazing place to try out this beautiful sport for the first time. I suck at it, but I am nevertheless obsessed and dedicated to making a good go of it. Heck, I even READ a River Runs Through It! Anyhow, I just bought the stuff I need to get started and plan on going by myself for the first time to Valley Creek this Saturday. I have a 9' 5wt Orvis Clearwater rod and have some basic questions, like...

Is Valley Creek horrible for a novice because the fish are so spooky and I'm a garbage novice caster?

Is my rod too long and line to heavy?

How does a 10ft 5x leader with 5' 6x tippet sound? I know it depends on the fly size...

After doing some flailing around the internet about Pennsylvania spring flies, I bought a sampling of things I saw consistently across a few forums, but probably bought them in the wrong sizes (i.e., too big) for spring/Valley Creek. Specifically, I bought:

Prince Nymphs: #12 / #14
Gold Bead Hares Ear Nymph: #12
Adams Dry Fly: #12 / #14
Quill Gordon Dry: #12
Wd-40: #20
Griffiths Gnat Dry Fly: #18
Elkwing Caddis Dry Fly: #16
Slow Water Caddis Dry: #16

I also bought the Orvis Eastern Trout Spring selection, featuring a variety in sizes 14-18: http://www.orvis.com/p/eastern-trout-spring-selection/79x6

Given what I've read here, it seems like I should be trying sizes #16 (at most) and smaller (#18, #20) on Valley Creek, and likely the WD-40, Griffiths, Elkwing Caddis, and Slow Water Caddis listed above. Does this seem about right? I recognize I'll have to try a few things out, and at least try those flies from my meager beginner's selection that appear to match the size and shape of what I observe the fish to be eating. I know there aren't hard and fast answers here; just trying to make sure I'm generally on the right track.

I also purchased some New Zealand Strike Indicators and split shot. Seems like I should forego the split shot, but should I use the New Zealands or try this wild dry dropper thing I heard about for the first time ever by reading this thread? Or should I just wing it and skip any kind of indicator because I'm new and over-complicating things?

I plan to practice my casting for a few hours on each of the next two evenings in the local park (I live in South Philly a few blocks from Pat's/Geno's and will look...peculiar). Anything else I should do to prepare for this momentous personal occasion?!

If you'd all be so kind to answer even some of these questions and provide tips, I'd be most grateful. This seems like a real positive place with people willing to teach those who wish to learn, so I'm happy I found you. My first excursion will undoubtedly be a bungled mess, but it's gonna be a blast.

Finally, I'm new to this community and happy to be told bluntly what the etiquette is, i.e., should I have posted this in another thread or its own thread.

Thanks folks. Be gentle!

 

[afishinado]

"Yo" to you South Philly guy.

Valley is tough, but give it a try. Your 9' 5wt rod outfit is fine, no need to buy anything else.

The "10' 5x leader with a 5' 6x tippet" you mentioned will be way too long for you to cast . Try simple 9' 5x leader and add a 3' tippet of 5x or 6x for smaller flies. If you have trouble casting, just shorten up until you find the length of leader/tippet you can handle.

The New Zealand strike indicator should work, just trim it down fairly small for stealth, plus a smaller indy will work fine for the smaller flies you should be fishing.

You may want to try a dry-dropper instead of an indy. Just tie on a fairly buoyant and visible dry fly, and tie a length of tippet to the bend of the dry and tie on a small sinking fly to ride below your dry. The dry fly will act as your indy and the fish may hit either fly. The second fly can be tie from 12"- 36" depending on the depth of the water.

You have a useful selection of flies listed:

Prince Nymphs: #12 / #14
Gold Bead Hares Ear Nymph: #12
Adams Dry Fly: #12 / #14
Quill Gordon Dry: #12
Wd-40: #20
Griffiths Gnat Dry Fly: #18
Elkwing Caddis Dry Fly: #16
Slow Water Caddis Dry: #16

For dries, the adams is a little big to imitate the blue winged olives but may be used for you dry dropper rig. The EW caddis may work on it's own or be a for a great dry dropper. The slow water caddis and griffiths gnat would also be a good flies to try on top.

The bigger nymphs can be fished with your indy while the WD40 would be great for the sinking fly on your dry/dropper rig. Give them all a try!

I saved the most important advice about fishing Valley for last. All the above is meaningless if you spook the fish before or during your cast.

Stay out of the water when you can. Wade carefully when you must wade. Stay low and spend more time casting from your knees than standing up when fishing Valley. Try not to cast your line over the fish.

Give it go! Have fun! Post a report. Good luck

 

[bsullivan]

What a remarkably fast, thoughtful, and comprehensive reply. Thanks so much. It seems obvious now that 15' of leader/tippet is far too much. Duh. And great tips otherwise. My Orvis "spring selection" includes a smaller blue winged olive or two, so I could try those directly in place of the Adams. But glad I seemed to have gotten a useful selection.

I will be very stealthy when fishing...Valley Creek just seemed to be the best combo of close and lovely for fishing spots. The Wissahickon in Philly is a more urban experience than I'm looking for, and likely very crowded so I wanted to go a little farther even if it'd be easier for me to fish.

More general questions about stocking up on flies and organizing them. First, you can see the selection of flies I have. First, does it make sense to get each one in all of the sizes I can reasonably tie to my 4x, 5x, and 6x tippets (i.e., #10-#20 or #22, I think?), or is that silly? Just trying to understand what is "normal" when buying flies.

Second, it seems like it will take me a long, long time to memorize by sight what each of my flies is when they are in my fly box (I still have them in their labeled packaging). Am I wrong that I should organize them in my fly box by (1) keeping flies of the same kind together and (2) otherwise organizing them by size and shape? Not sure if there's a better organizing principle that I'm missing.

Thanks!

 

[afishinado]

bsullivan wrote:
What a remarkably fast, thoughtful, and comprehensive reply. Thanks so much. It seems obvious now that 15' of leader/tippet is far too much. Duh. And great tips otherwise. My Orvis "spring selection" includes a smaller blue winged olive or two, so I could try those directly in place of the Adams. But glad I seemed to have gotten a useful selection.

I will be very stealthy when fishing...Valley Creek just seemed to be the best combo of close and lovely for fishing spots. The Wissahickon in Philly is a more urban experience than I'm looking for, and likely very crowded so I wanted to go a little farther even if it'd be easier for me to fish.

More general questions about stocking up on flies and organizing them. First, you can see the selection of flies I have. First, does it make sense to get each one in all of the sizes I can reasonably tie to my 4x, 5x, and 6x tippets (i.e., #10-#20 or #22, I think?), or is that silly? Just trying to understand what is "normal" when buying flies.

Second, it seems like it will take me a long, long time to memorize by sight what each of my flies is when they are in my fly box (I still have them in their labeled packaging). Am I wrong that I should organize them in my fly box by (1) keeping flies of the same kind together and (2) otherwise organizing them by size and shape? Not sure if there's a better organizing principle that I'm missing.

Thanks!

Here's a link to a blog article about fly seleciton I wrote a while back > Dozen Top Flies

I worked at a fly shop not long ago, and your questions about fly selection were asked by beginning FFers just about every day.

My best advice is to use tried-and-true patterns in different colors shapes and sizes and also be observant. If you see a large dark fly hatching on the water, tie on a large dark fly!! ....and so on. Just match what you see. No need to memorize the names of the flies you carry > big dark ones, small light-colored ones....

The last lines of the article describe the different types of insects that hatch > mayfly, caddisfly, stonefly and terrestrials. If you just learn to ID these types of insects and match their size, profile and general color, you're well on your way.

Again, stealth is first.

Finding the fish is the second key to success (although at Valley there are fish everywhere).

Making a good presentation is next.

Fly selection is usually the least important key to success.

See what happens if you don't spook the fish, and get a good drift over a trout with the "wrong" fly...... ;-)

 

[DoctorWater15]

bsullivan,

I'll attempt to add some more information on Valley Creek for you since I do my best to fish it fairly regularly, although I'm sure not as regularly as some members of this forum. Afishinado had some great points as well! TCO Fly Shop now in Haverford in the Orvis store is also super helpful, so don't be afraid to stop in there or give them a call. You may even drive past it on your way to Valley Creek.

I was just out there last week and the fish were definitely feeling the dry dropper method, so I would try that. As afishinado mentioned, the caddis and griffiths gnat flies would be the best dry flies to use in that combo. If I am fishing a dry dropper, I usually fish the dropper about 18" below the dry for Valley Creek. The WD-40 would be a great dropper fly. Mind you though that this method might not work great for fish holding in deep holes.

If you're going to fish some of the deeper holes the New Zealand indicator would work great. As already stated, just trim it short so it's not as visible to fish and lands softly. I generally fish size 16 and smaller flies even with an indicator, and just add a small split shot to help get the flies down. Your larger nymphs like the hare's ear and the ones in the Orvis selection would be decent in helping to get the WD-40 down if you're fishing a tandem rig. If not, you can always just add some split shot above the WD-40 to get it down. Plus, if you break off with one fly that sometimes hurts less than losing two!

Your outfit should work just fine for Valley Creek as well. I fish it with a 9 ft 4 wt all the time and that is the perfect size for me. As previously mentioned, the fish are spooky there, so you really do need to stalk them. Stay as far away from places that you plan to cast to, and if you must wade, approach carefully from downstream.

Valley Creek is a very popular stream to fish, so I'm sure you might run into a few other anglers out there. Everyone I've met there has been very friendly as well. As for where to park/fish, the best fishing seems to be above the Knox Quarters bridge. I usually park there, and fish up to the 76 overpass, and if I haven't had my fill, I'll drive up to Bradford Road and walk down to 76 and then fish back up and from there.

The stream is loaded with fish, so pretty any place that looks like it holds fish probably will. I generally target the riffles, runs, and pools. Sometimes the slower water will be holding fish if bugs are hatching, but they generally stay more hidden. When I was there last week the fish had definitely spread out from their wintering holes.

To start into a little bit about fly selection, Valley Creek has always been kind to me if I fish a size 18 or size 20 beadhead black zebra midge. Other flies that work well for me are size 16 black elk hair caddis, a size 16 walts worm, a black soft hackle, and olive caddis pupa. Those are some of my go to's, but many other flies work well there too.

I'll take a stab at answering your questions about stocking up on and organizing flies. First, it is really easy to end up with a TON of flies. To start, I'd probably figure out what streams you plan on fishing regularly, and pick up some flies for those spots. You don't need a ton to be successful. Some of the general flies (hares ear nymphs, pheasant tail nymphs, midges, elk hair caddis, parachute adams, etc.) will get you a long ways. If you do a little research on where you plan to fish you can tailor what you're buying or tying to that. Also keep in mind that you usually lose nymphs more than dries since you may snag on the bottom.

As for organizing the flies, a lot of that is personal preference. As for me, I organize by fly type, then color, and finally size. Whatever works for you is what you should do though! Most people organize at the simplest by dry flies, nymphs, and streamers. After that a lot becomes personal preference. I'm sure some other members here might have better advice on that than I do.

If you have any other questions about Valley Creek, please feel free to let me know! You can always shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to answer any and all questions you might have. Good luck on Saturday, and don't forget to have fun!