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Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13701
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Quote:
I was surprised to read this. I have a good friend who doesn't improve his clinch knots either.


I'm lazy with knots, mostly because I rarely have problems with them. The clinch knot works well for me. I give it a good pull to test before fishing, and it's usually ok. If not, I retie. And blood knots? For on-stream work I often just tie two clinch knots to each other. I'll tie true blood knots at home when building a leader, or on-stream when expecting to stress a knot (expecting big fish on light tackle). But most of the time I find the double clinch so much easier and quicker and effective enough to get the job done.

It's exceedingly rare that I break the line when I'm not attempting to break the line (snags, etc.).

That said, I've noticed on the rare occasions I use fluoro, my knots tend to slip more, and I often have to "improve" my clinch knots and use true blood knots to keep it from slipping.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 13:57


Re: Switching flies

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2011/5/3 12:22
From South Lebanon Township, PA
Posts: 1961
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I suspect the OP is using knotless, tapered leaders. If that's the case, then out of the package the leader is essentially one piece, just tapered down to whatever size tippet the package is marked as. So to a newbie it basically seems like you're cutting your leader as you remove the flies...you are in a way because it's all one continuous piece.

If that's the case, as the others have mentioned, once you've snipped off a foot or two of the fine "tippet" end, then just tie a new piece of tippet of the same diameter on, and tie your flies on to that...repeat until you've worked up into the thicker taper of the leader.

One other suggestion...you could go to a furled/braided leader with a loop style connection on the tippet end. You just tie new tippet onto the loop as you use it up. They're more expensive ($10 a piece or so), but I can often get an entire season out of one leader that way. You're only cutting/removing/replacing tippet using this system, the leader stays in tact the whole time.

Bottom line though...you gotta snip the flies off and take the curled/knotted piece of tippet with it. You need new, straight tippet to get a good new knot, and the tippet will be weaker than its advertised breaking strength if you retire with the curled/knotted section from the previous knot.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 14:01


Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2012/6/11 12:05
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 200
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Quote:

pcray1231 wrote:
I'm lazy with knots, mostly because I rarely have problems with them. The clinch knot works well for me.


Can't argue with that. Perfect example of YMMV.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 14:02
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Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2011/6/29 9:38
From Philadelphia
Posts: 2145
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Consider tippet rings, especially if you primarily nymph fish. Tie that on to the end of your leader then tie tippet to that. This way your leader stays in tact. You can do it with dry flies too but I really don't like it when using small dry flies. My two cents for the week.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 14:18


Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2010/6/19 16:43
From Clinton County, Pa.
Posts: 1844
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Tippet rings are the way to go. I use them even when fishing small dry flys. The ring saves your leader and makes changing flys and tippet a snap.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 16:25
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Re: Switching flies

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2006/9/9 19:37
From aliquippa
Posts: 621
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I also do what troutbert said, make two cuts, nice clean straight line to retie, one thing that i did when i first started was i would measure up the leader from the tippt about 16-18 inches and cut it, then retie, that gave me an indicator of that it was time to tie on more tippet, eventually you will just know from experience when to add tippet

Posted on: 2012/8/15 17:01
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Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2006/9/11 13:33
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 3364
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On the clinch knot vs the improved clinch knot....

Ever see a chart for recommended tippet size vs hook size?

Ever wonder why/how they came up with it?

It's a rough guide to allow the clinch knot to hold properly. Seriously.

What makes the clinch knot able to hold well on a particular size of hook wire is the ability for the wraps to pinch (clinch) the "legs" that come up on either side of the hook eye, tight to the eye. Too wide of an angle, and the knot slips. It doesn't allow the tag to be pinched between the coils and the "legs" tightly enough to hold properly.

This is where the improved clinch knot is useful. It allows mismatched tippet size, to hook wire diameter better than a regular clinch knot.

Two problems with this - the improved clinch knot is a weaker knot than the regular clinch knot, and the improved clinch knot uses up more tippet when tied. The design of the improved clinch knot doesn't allow the knot to be "slid" down the tippet to the very end of the tag (more wasted tippet). Plus, it's slightly more difficult to tie, with the one extra step.

If you've read this far, you've just been "pcrayed".

Here's a neat little article on the perfect clinch knot by someone that knows his stuff...

http://www.garyborger.com/2010/05/17/perfect-clinch-knot/

Posted on: 2012/8/15 17:11
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Re: Switching flies

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2009/9/9 14:52
From Bel Air, MD
Posts: 703
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On the OT, I snip for a couple of reasons - one is to avoid the curly end that makes it difficult to tie, and two is to get rid of any frays that might be on the tippet from fighting fish, rock abrasions, etc.

If your tippet is getting too short, you can always add a length using a triple surgeons knot. Regarding the clinch vs. improved clinch, I think it was Lefty who said "An improved clinch doesn't really improve anything." Although I do use the improved clinch on streamers and poppers for smallies.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 17:39


Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2012/6/11 12:05
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 200
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Quote:

Heritage-Angler wrote:
Ever see a chart for recommended tippet size vs hook size?


Yeah, probably.

Quote:

Heritage-Angler wrote:
Ever wonder why/how they came up with it?


No, not really. But I believe you.

Seriously, I understand you're saying. But can you explain how it uses any more than a fraction of a millimeter of extra tippet?


Posted on: 2012/8/15 18:49
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Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2006/9/11 13:33
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 3364
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Quote:

Kabutt wrote:
...can you explain how it uses any more than a fraction of a millimeter of extra tippet?


Sure. When you tie an improved clinch, the tag stays the same length when you tighten the knot.

When you tie a "regular" clinch knot, the knot allows you to slide it down snug as the tag shortens. If you're not careful, you can pull the tag right through the knot. Ever done that?

A long time ago, I was taught to tighten the clinch knot by holding the tag against the shank of the hook, and pulling on the standing end. With a bit of practice, you can get the tag end so short, it doesn't need trimming.

Winding up with a tag so short it doesn't need trimming is much tougher to accomplish with an improved clinch knot.

Try it.

You may/may not have seen those charts with recommended tippet size vs fly size, but you've probably heard of the rule of thumb that does the same thing.

Divide the size of the fly by 3, and you have the right size of tippet. For example, if you have a size 12 fly, divide 12 by 3, and you get 4 - or 4X tippet. Sound more familiar?

Posted on: 2012/8/15 19:13
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Re: Switching flies

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2012/6/11 12:05
From Lehigh Valley
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The tag does indeed stay the same length, ie., everything stays right where it is while I'm seating the knot, which is just what I prefer. As I'm sure you know, friction/heat caused when the tippet rubs against itself weakens it. You're pulling all that extra material back through the coils, creating that friction/heat. My proficiency at tying the knot allows me to do so with a very short tag; I suppose this is not true for everyone.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 19:43
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Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13701
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Yeah, with the regular clinch, the tag definitely shortens. I often don't have to trim the tag after tying, but not always.

You can eliminate the heat thing with a little spit. I just run the untightened knot through my mouth before tightening. Lubricates it.

I pretty much always use the rule of 4+1. Divide by 4, add one. A 16 is 16/4 = 4. +1 is 5x. Yeah, until you get real small, it's awfully similar to the rule of 3.

Posted on: 2012/8/15 22:49


Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2012/6/11 12:05
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 200
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You don't completely eliminate friction by lubing with saliva. You greatly reduce it, yes, but it still happens. Of course I do this also - lubing your knots before tightening should be standard practice.

It's all good - I do what I do because it works for me. I'll stay away from the beginner forum I guess. I'll just stick to posting carp pics in the brownlining dump.

Edit: not gonna be 'that guy'

Posted on: 2012/8/16 6:31

Edited by Kabutt on 2012/8/16 7:26:34
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Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2006/9/11 13:33
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 3364
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Quote:

Kabutt wrote:
Last time I posted in the beginner forum to try to point a newb toward some nice, less crowded water on the LL, HA was very quick to post contrary information. As if I didn't know what I was talking about. Just because I don't have 7000 posts doesn't mean I don't have 20 years of fly fishing experience under my belt.


Are you referring to the post where someone (you?) recommended fishing above the hatchery? I agreed with that, and also offered information that fishing well downstream of the regs waters was good too.

Why so hostile? We're all here to help the newbies. Any information that helps with their learning process is a good thing.

Posted on: 2012/8/16 7:23
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Re: Switching flies

Joined:
2012/6/11 12:05
From Lehigh Valley
Posts: 200
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Haha I just edited my comment because I reread it, and yeah, I sounded hostile. This wasn't my intended tone.

Yep that was me. But that's not quite how the post went, you said something like "yeah. that can be good, but this is better". And then like three other people followed with "do what HA says, he knows his stuff"... Put yourself in my shoes in that situation...

This is a message board. The many nuances of human communication cannot be conveyed via text only. I know you're trying to help, as are we all. I'm not mad at ya.

Posted on: 2012/8/16 7:35
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