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Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2009/8/12 11:55
From chester county
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I found that book in ocean city MD of all places. There are many streams in that book that aren't on any lists, I enjoyed it.

Posted on: 2011/12/1 17:32
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Re: Freestone vs. Limestone
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My local library has it. It is NOT imo, a good fishing guide, but it does show the streams that are influenced by limestone springs. I remember being surprised by a Greene County water mentioned and also the experimental deep-well pumping of underground water to the surface of Linn Run in Westmoreland.

Posted on: 2011/12/1 18:05
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Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2006/9/13 10:18
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I got my copy from Joe and got it autographed. He's made a couple of presentations at our TU Chapter.
As for the differences between limestone and freestone streams, most of what's been said is true, but there are also many exceptions. North Central PA, especially Kettle Creek, Upper Allegheny River, and Pine Creek are fed by fertile springs in the headwaters. They are more fertile than most freestone streams. They have tributaries with watercress in them too.
The other thing I disagree with is the point about water temperatures. Limestone streams can be much colder during the summer and warmer in the winter, but the temperature range is much wider than most people think it is. As an example they range from around 35 degree minimum, during the coldest part of winter to about 75 degrees during the warmest part of the summer. Temperatures in Class A freestone streams generally won't get high than about 75 degrees, but can, because summer base flows can be extremely low. Winter temps; commonly get down to 32 degrees, with ice forming on the streambed.
You’ll often see writers say that limestone streams have a constant temperature; nothing can be further from the truth. The temperature coming out of the big springs does vary over the course of a year. But it doesn’t vary a lot, but then neither does the temperature of freestone springs. All I’m saying is that you can make generalizations and that there are always exceptions to those generalizations.

Posted on: 2011/12/2 22:23
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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Quote:
You’ll often see writers say that limestone streams have a constant temperature; nothing can be further from the truth. The temperature coming out of the big springs does vary over the course of a year.


Groundwater does not deviate appreciably from the mean annual temperature at any time during the year. If you take a temperature of a limestone spring at its source the temperature will not vary by more than a few degrees.

As an example, I've taken temps on Logan Branch below the big springs in Bellefonte at various times during the year. I've never recorded a temp above 55 or below 45. I once wet waded Logan Branch once on a 95 degree day in August. My legs were numb. The water temperature that day was 52 degrees.


Posted on: 2011/12/3 10:40


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2011/7/7 20:06
From South Central,PA
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That PA Limestone Streams book by Joe Armstrong can be checked out at any library in PA that is in the Access PA system. They had to get it in for me but I got it in a few days. I believe Chambersburg PA actually has the book I got.

Posted on: 2011/12/3 15:22


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone
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To further Midnights point, Big Spring's temp variation is less than one degree F when comparing the August reading to the December reading. Constant 52*.



Attach file:



jpg  Big Spring graph.JPG (113.96 KB)
53_4edb6859335e5.jpg 576X400 px

Posted on: 2011/12/4 7:32


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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I won't argue that the limestone springs the feed limestone streams don't vary much. All I'm saying is that the streams themselves do vary a lot more than most anglers think. In other words, many people will write that they have a comstant temperature, nothing could be farther from the truth. Spring Creek will vary from rouhardly a constant temperature.ghly 40 degrees in the winter to 75 degreeis n the summer.

Posted on: 2011/12/4 16:16
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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I'm with Chaz on that one.

Midnight, you are correct, the water temp AT THE SPRING doesn't vary that much throughout the year. But, again, FREESTONERS ALSO COME FROM SPRINGS, and the same is true of those springs, it's essentially the same temp year round.

The temperature thing is purely a function of how far away from the springs you are. Water temps adjust to air temps once the water is on the surface, and the farther away from the spring you are, the more it will vary with the air temps/seasons.

It's just that, because limestoners often have very large springs, it is possible for a sizable stream to be very close to it's source springs, and thus, it is possible for a large stream to stay fairly consistent in its temps. It's also possible to add a new spring downstream, which can be large enough to rejuvinate the temps on its own. Of course, "possible" doesn't mean "is", and limestone streams far from their springs can vary quite a bit in water temps.

Freestoners, on the other hand, because the springs are small and evenly spread out, grow slowly. Once the stream gets sizable the vast majority of its flow is far from it's source springs. So while small freestoners act like limestoners in water temp, it's hard to find larger freestoners which stay consistent in water temps.

Posted on: 2011/12/5 7:27


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2006/10/18 15:46
From Patterson twp, Pa (Beaver Falls)
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Quote:

unforgiven wrote:
Perfect. Thank you Bozeman and Fishidiot.



He called you Bozeman.... I officially hate you more.

Posted on: 2011/12/5 12:55
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Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2007/1/2 11:55
From Bozeman
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Don't hate me. It was 16 below this morning.

Save your jealousy for when I am fishing my life away this spring.

Posted on: 2011/12/5 14:10


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2009/9/14 12:48
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Quote:
FREESTONERS ALSO COME FROM SPRINGS, and the same is true of those springs, it's essentially the same temp year round.


If you were to compare the fraction of water on a freestone stream (like Slate Run) that comes from springs it would be far less than what you get from springs on a true spring creek like the Letort. Freestoners like slate run depend heavily on precipitation to maintain flows that are suitable for trout. The flow in true spring creeks comes directly out of a limestone aquifer, and they will maintain relatively constant flows even without recent rain. If you go to slate run in the summer after a month without rain, it will look almost like a dry streambed. If you visit the letort at the same time, it will look basically the same as it always does.

It is important to make a distinction between "Limestone streams" and "Limestone-influenced" streams. True spring creeks like the Letort, Big Spring, Falling Spring, and others maintain very constant temperatures. Since the streamflow is primarily derived from subsurface sources, these streams don't tend to get high and muddy after rainfall to the same extent as streams fed by surface water.

Spring Creek is not a true spring creek, although it does have substantial limestone influence. It is fed both by small limestone streams (like Cedar and Thompson runs), limestone springs and small mountain freestones like Galbraith gap run. The same is true for Penns creek, the Little J, and Big Fishing Creek, all of which have varying degrees of limestone influence.

Penns creek is an especially weird case. Even though it is fed by a giant spring, the spring at penns cave must connect directly to surface sources / sinkholes as the flow coming out of the cave can vary significantly. After a heavy rain, the flow coming out of the cave is often muddy. Compare that to say, the flow in the ditch on Big Spring. It would take a pretty extreme rain before that would even begin to get dirty.

Obviously, there is not a clear line between a freestone and a limestone stream. It is a continuum. The point is, if someone is talking about a limestone stream having a constant temperature, they are talking about true spring creeks and not limestone influenced streams and rivers, which are a different animal. Many people have a tendency to refer to all streams with limestone influence as limestone streams. This probably confuses a lot of people, especially those who haven't visited true spring creeks like the Letort.



Posted on: 2011/12/5 16:16


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

Joined:
2006/9/13 10:18
From LV
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In the example above of Big Spring, there is approximately 2.5 degree difference at the spring year round. It is a very stable stream in terms of temperature at the spring. However if you go there on a summer day when it's 95 degrees outside the water temperature at Newville will be in the 70's.
I recently saw a study by USGS on their website that compared streams inflow, some of the streams had a base flow of 90% from springs.
So going back to my original statement, yes limestone streams are a more constant temperature, but they are most certainly not a constant temperature.
Anyone arguing that Penns, Spring, and some other big limestone streams aren't "classic" or "true" limestone streams are just saying that to justify their argument.

Posted on: 2011/12/5 20:40
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It's time to stop stocking all wild trout streams no matter what Classification they are, and time to eradicate brown trout in some of our limestone streams and re-establish brookies in them.


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2006/11/2 8:50
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A limestone stream is a stream that has most of its flow coming out of limestone aquifers.

Limestone streams can be very low gradient, or medium gradient. They can have very fine substrate (silt, sand, gravel) or they may have coarse substrate, commonly cobble, but even boulders and bedrock in some places.

They may have a fairly steady temperature (where they are close to their major springs). Or they may get warm in the summer and cold in the winter, where they are further downstream from their major springs.

They may flow clean most of the time. Or they may flow muddy after a rain, like Penns Creek, Yellow Creek, and Kish Creek.

They may have a low number of species of aquatic invertebrates, or a very high diversity.

None of those things are defining characteristics; they vary a great deal.

The defining characteristic of limestone streams is that the most of their water is coming out of limestone rock formations.

Streams such as Spring Creek, Fishing Creek, Yellow Creek, Kish Creek, Penns Creek are all limestone streams. Most of their water is coming out of the limestone. Some of these have a small amount of flow coming in from freestone tribs, but not enough to change the water chemistry very much.


Posted on: 2011/12/5 22:03


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
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Quote:
If you were to compare the fraction of water on a freestone stream (like Slate Run) that comes from springs it would be far less than what you get from springs on a true spring creek like the Letort. Freestoners like slate run depend heavily on precipitation to maintain flows that are suitable for trout.


This reflects a misunderstanding of freestoners, and I don't think it is true. Aside from right after a rain (which is true of limestoners too), most of the flow in a freestoner also comes from springs. Outside runoff periods, which are short lived, nearly 100% of the water in both types of stream come from springs.

It's just that the nature of the two types of spring are very different. And yes, freestone springs vary much more in flow based on recent (last few weeks) precipitation, while limestone springs vary in flow based on longer term (last few months) precipitation trends. Because precipitation tends to even out over a period of months, limestoners are indeed a more consistent flow rate.

Posted on: 2011/12/6 8:19


Re: Freestone vs. Limestone

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2008/1/31 17:19
From Pretty much everywhere at some point, Thorndale today.
Posts: 13421
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Easiest to explain in pictures. :) Difference is all in whether or not the bedrock is water permeable.

With the shorter path between being absorbed by the ground and coming out in a spring, yes, the flow rate of a freestone spring varies more based on recent precipitation.

Attach file:



jpg  freestone.JPG (12.03 KB)
1353_4ede16ebda3df.jpg 390X394 px

jpg  limestone.JPG (14.08 KB)
1353_4ede16f2e75d0.jpg 390X394 px

Posted on: 2011/12/6 8:20



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