Casting Issue - Unintentional J-shape/belly in line

greenlander

greenlander

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Sep 9, 2006
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I've developed a bad habit over the last year or so which has been giving me fits on the water, one that I can't seem to figure out. Normally, it isn't a big deal, as I'm fishing smaller water and the consequences aren't really that dire.

This weekend, on the Upper D, it proved incredibly costly, as it greatly reduced my ability to cast accurately with longer casts.

Anyway ... My casts are laying on the water with a belly, a "J" shape if you will. It's the sort of result I'd normally hope to achieve with a reach cast/mend, except backwards. My fly lands upstream of the line and leader, instead of downstream.

When fishing from the other side of the river, this works fine, but I have no control.

If I try to remedy the problem with a reach cast, I only end up with sort of an S-curve with my fly once again upstream of my leader and line.

I thought I might be turning my wrist or dropping the rod, but I'm not noticing myself doing this. Trying specifically not to do this isn't yielding a solution.

Any guesses?
 
Try holding the reel parallel to the water next time when you are casting. Most of the time the reel is kept facing up and down, while turning it parallel can help the line and leader lay out straight. I use this trick probably 90% of the time when I am nymphing or fishing dries even. Another thng you can try is stopping the rod at about 11 oclock on the forward motion. It creates a more abrupt stop often causing the line to flip downstream rather than upstream. Only other idea would be to pull the fly line slightly as your line is laying out on the forward cast. Pulling on it like that often results in the leader laying out the whole way to.
 
TUNA -

Will definitely give these ideas a shot.

I tend to be more of a sidearm caster than a straight up and down, but I'll experiment with rod angle.

Doesn't seem to be an issue of the leader not turning over entirely, there seems to be plenty of power. It just wants to turn upstream when it does. You'd think I was doing a downstream reach cast, but I'm not.

For the record, btw, this is from the perspective of a right hand caster with my right hand/shoulder on the downstream side.

Oh, and if it provides any clues, I also had pretty frequent issues with my fly hooking my leader or fly line on the forward cast and causing me to have to untangle things. This came out of nowhere.

 
You were probably throwing the tailing loops because you were struggling to fix the poor casts. Tailing loops, to me, are usually a red herring, and the result of trying to compensate for something else.

It sounds to me like you're sidearming and outcasting your range. I know because that's what my casts look like when I try to outcast my range. The fly isn't turning over, and the side arm cast results in what you're seeing. Probably can't do much but practice, and I'd imagine nobody could troubleshoot it without seeing it.

*edit: If you're getting too much turnover, consider a longer, stiffer leader.
 
Sounds like you're not getting enough turnover? or maybe I'm confused? try keeping the tip of your rod higher until your fly hits the water. Or go down a line weight? Hard to tell without seeing it/you cast. Could be a hundred things.
 
you could also have too much leader, or not enough defined taper. i.e. too much smaller diameter at your butt. I agree with tuna, stop your casts more abruptly and give a small pull back on the rod before you fly lands, then, as soon as the fly hits the water, pull your tippet back just a hair to get the fly in front of your line.
 
Heck it could even be the line.
If you keep trying these methods to correct it and cannot; it might be a faulty line. Happens all the time when the foam gets formed unevenly.
 
If you are right handed, and your cast is not directly over head you're going to get a natural hook to your cast. Just like in golf. (*disclaimer, most bad golfers are really bad and slice, but a natural hook is what happens when a good golf swing is executed.)

Back to fishing. I can, on purpose, hook or slice my line to apply them to conditions. As it was said above, I do have problems casting great distances perfectly straight. It just takes practice. Make sure your grip is proper, your timing is right, and your cast is overhead, not side arm.

Practice doesn't make perfect... PERFECT Practice makes perfect.


Ryan
 
The tailing loops I'm pretty sure are in fact, as jay suggests, having a little trouble with distance. The tangleups/tailing loops were mostly happening over 50-60 feet. Working with a 8'6" rod, standing in waist deep water, and having not had to toss 60+ ft casts in quite some time, I'm not surprised.

As far as the way the leader is laying out, I'm willing to try anything, and will.

For clarity, I've attached a beautiful illustration of what was happening, in case I've not described it properly.

The drawing is a more severe example, as often it would only curve upstream about half that amount, but should help illustrate better.
 

Attachments

  • castbelly.jpg
    castbelly.jpg
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Unusual looking brown trout, I think you have more problems than just a cast, check your glasses prescription...

Seriously, though. Force yourself to do a few directly overhead, not sidearmed. That's the problem, line follows the direction of the tip, and your tip is hooking because its sidearm.

 
I'll have to experiment.

I'm pretty sure the same thing was occurring casting directly overhead, as I was forced to do so in several locations due to grass/brush on the bank.

Also, to be clear, though I said my typical stroke is sidearm, that's not accurate. Sidearm is what I'll do if I need to cast under branches. My normal stroke, more accurately, 3/4 sidearm.

Isn't 3/4 sidearm pretty normal, especially during longer casts, and not normally a problematic stroke?
 

Mebbe, but regardless, that's where it comes from. Line follows tip, tip goes in arc from your arm, biggity bam, J!

Do a couple with your thumb ending straight up, and then straight down, remain concious of this fact, and you'll watch the J curve disappear.

You've become complacent, and lazy. I speak with the authority of one who does the exact same thing.
 
gfen wrote:

You've become complacent, and lazy. I speak with the authority of one who does the exact same thing.

Possibly, certainly not out of the realm. Though I tell myself I was doing everything humanly possible to make that J go away. I'll get out there soon and try again.

That said, let's say you need to use a partially sidearm or completely sidearm delivery ... stuck with the J? I mean ... there are plenty of reasons to use those positions. So .. there must be a way to compensate, no?
 
stevehalupka wrote:
you could also have too much leader, or not enough defined taper. i.e. too much smaller diameter at your butt.

I'd be concerned about the leader as well if I hadn't recently switched to Gary Borger's leader formula. Seems to be working well. The current issue has been hanging around for a bit now whether using normal tapered leaders, furled leaders, or GB's leader.
 

Yeap, pay better attention to what you're doing. :)

An answer easier said than done, perhaps. Or, pretend that the J is just your awesomenisty coming forth in automagic reach casts and only stand on one bank of the stream. That's my method!
 
It might be tough to do at long distances, but I've learned to cast over my left shoulder (being right handed). This allows your mistake to be made in the other direction (fly leads the leader) and thus your "problem" is fixed. You're basically casting backwards. Practice it and it can be VERY useful.
 
you can combat the J by throwing more line than you need, but with an open, unenergized loop for the finish. Your J shape could be coming from too abrupt of a stop where the the excess energy is causing the tail of the leader to snap under and tuck.

The 'tuck' cast in the vertical plane is essentially the same effect, but you're seeing it as a J since the plane of your cast is off kilter. If you want that sweet reverse J to let the fly dilly dally in some slack eddy as your line comes racing down across the faster currents, you need more line in the air to out reach past your target, but stop it softly to kill it/open up the loop, much like a puddle cast when in the vertical plane. Trying for a target that's on the fringe of your comfortable range is probably what's introduced this 'glitch.'

Or go vertical and work on the wrist twitch finish thru the pinky and ring fingers to lay curves left or right....

This is something I deal with often with my mediocre casting skillz....you see that rise, try to reach for it and hook the cast in the exact opposite direction of what was intended. Once I've really put that fish down with the initially bungled presentations I'll usually throw an extra dozen or so casts at that spot until I've figured out how to get the cast I intended before moving on, and sometimes, surprisingly, you didn't actually put that fish down and he sips that fly on the 20th cast....practice, practice, practice.
 
Yup, the line goes where the tip goes. My guess is you're not casting in the same plane with your back & forward cast. Whether you cast straight up or sidearm makes no difference. Try to practice casting where the tip can follow a straight line, like next to a roofline of a building. If you stroke is in a straight line forward and back, the your line and leader will lay out straight.

Shorten your leader to assure that it tuns over correctly and try the above. Good luck.
 
Isn't 3/4 sidearm pretty normal, especially during longer casts, and not normally a problematic stroke?

Changing your leader / tippet formula might help. You want to decrease the amount of momentum transfered from the fly line to the fly, which you should be able to accomplish by some combination of lengthening the light tippet section or shortening the stiff butt section. The stiffer the tippet material, the more momentum transfer you'll get. You'll just have to tinker with it until you find a balance. You might just add an extra 2 ft of light tippet to the end and see if that helps?

Of course, you could also fix it by changing your casting stroke, which is the more reliable solution. You'll always tend to get a "J" if your rod tilts out of the vertical plane.
 
tomitrout wrote:
you can combat the J by throwing more line than you need, but with an open, unenergized loop for the finish. Your J shape could be coming from too abrupt of a stop where the the excess energy is causing the tail of the leader to snap under and tuck.

This is good advice. I was on the stream this weekend working on this very problem, and it was exactly as tomitrout described. I was stopping the cast abruptly. I am normally a side arm caster, but the combination of overhead and allowing a little more line at the end of the cast corrected my problem. I was also using a hand tied knotted leader, which seemed to turn over a little better for me. I usually use one piece tapered leaders.

Steve
 
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