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Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30
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The new date for this meeting will be Monday the 5th. Note that the location has changed to the Big Spring Events and Activities Center; 7-9pm

More Info

Posted on: 2012/11/1 15:48


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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Quote:

GreenWeenie wrote:
Actually Jack, there are quite a few people who support the same views I support, I just happen to be the most vocal. If you did a little research on the subject and maybe got involved you would realize that it was a group of concerned citizens who didn't buy the PFBC's BS (not the biologists, the administration, the ones who set policy and make decisions, generally not based on scientific knowledge but rather politics - Mike knows exactly what I am talking about but has to plead the 5th and I fully understand) and managed to get the hatchery shutdown and essentially made the PFBC look like incompetent lying buffoons. Why? Well the PFBC's public position was these people were wrong about the hatchery being the cause of the problem but guess what happened Mr. Ill-Informed, exactly what these un-experts said would happen DID happen, much to the dismay of the real "experts" when the hatchery was shutdown (you do know the hatchery discharged unpermitted poisons (diquat and formaldehyde) into the stream yet the PFBC denied it yet internal emails between the PFBC and the PADEP admitted such - I'm sure you are fully aware of that). The stream did exactly as those so called rabble rousers said would happen and it started recovering on its own and turned into the greatest little secret anywhere. I laugh when you and others who never fished the place try and discredit me because it was a fantastic stream - a phenominal stream - you people have no idea exactly how great it was because you never fished it. And the fact that it turned into a world class fishery simply pisses off the experts. This isn't about outting my private little stream it's about f'in up a trout stream that probably had more 20+ inch bows per 100 feet than any trout stream in the world including the D and brookies up to 4lbs. Seriously, you have no idea what was really there and as I said, the stream is still a 9/10 but ir used to be a 20/10.

So how do I know, well these so called experts said the stream held no fish yet for some unexplained reason, I was consistently catching upwards of 50+ trout everytime I fished the stream with probably 7-10 in the 20"+ range. (PREEMPTIVE STRIKE - don't bother saying you're the greatest or whatever trying to use your only defense, which is to discredit me), that's not the point, the point is the experts were saing the stream held no fish yet I was seeing something completely so I guess I am insane and crazy because the experts said nothing was there so what an asshole I am for catching all these fish that they say aren't there. And the reason I may be the only one saying that is simply because I was the only one fishing the place and it is sickening that any so called stream restoration expert would fail to see what was there. I'm not an "expert" yet I found what was there apparantly found what no one else could.

I appologize for being the asshole.


TLDR

Posted on: 2012/11/1 19:53
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Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30
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I don't know why you felt the need to do that, fade, but we have moved on from that, I thought. Here is the helpful post that should appear at the top or bottom, depending on your settings:

The new date for this meeting will be Monday the 5th. Note that the location has changed to the Big Spring Events and Activities Center; 7-9pm

More Info

Posted on: 2012/11/1 20:50
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Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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So, is anyone going to this meeting from the Allentown Area?

Posted on: 2012/11/2 21:29
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Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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Quote:

GreenWeenie wrote:
Big Spring wasn’t another brookie trickle. It was a world class stream that supported a very healthy population of large brook and bows that didn’t need anything done to it to help it. Too bad most people didn’t know that.

As for the next phase, go for it and complete the transformation into a fishing park. Make sure the design includes lots of plunge pools because you know, limestone spring creeks aren’t supposed to be slow, meandering bodies of water they are supposed to look like fast moving, rolling tumbling mountain freestones. Also, make sure the design includes elevated observation towers to make it easy for people to spot the trout (I suggest shocking the stream and then spray painting the trout blaze orange so they will clearly be visible from the towers). And casting platforms that extend over the stream, include those so people don’t even need to wear waders.

And lastly, make sure there are neon signs with arrows specifically pointing to the lunker structures or other holding areas that may hold large trout.

Glad I fished it extensively when it was a world class natural stream. What a POS it has turned into.





why go through all that? I'll just go pin it... lol

Posted on: 2012/11/3 23:10


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30
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The meeting was well attended and the attendees included John Arway and many of the PFBC staff including the Area Fisheries Managers involved with this project. Also present were many prominent names in the Pennsylvania Fly Fishing Community who you would recognize as well as local folks and some Big Spring old timers. The meeting presented the plan for a new restoration section in 2013 and proposed some changes for the future. Among the audience, the main source of disagreement, not surprisingly, dealt with the issue of what (if anything) should be done about the rainbows. Here's the short version of the meeting:


-PFBC biologists presented a ppt show describing the flow, cover, and depth changes in the section restored in 2010. The stream is now narrower, deeper, and slower, and has more non-vegetation cover and thus more "optimal" habitat for both brook and rainbow trout. The gravel used to block in the logs in this section is being used by rainbows for spawning and, in the future, smaller gravel should be used as this might reduce rainbow spawning success. Also, dissolved oxygen levels at the lower end of the FFO section and downstream into the ATW section are lower than optimal for wild trout.

-PFBC ppt show describing the electrofishing results of the section that was restored in 2010 and the sections used as control. After the 2010 restoration, brook trout numbers increased (roughly doubled) and rainbow numbers increased in the restored section by a greater margin (roughly four fold). These were the results revealed in the 2011 fish survey. The recent 2012 survey of these same sections revealed that rainbows, although still more numerous in the restored section, had declined a bit in 2011-2012. Brook trout numbers continued to rise in this section and in the upstream control section from 2011 to 2012.

-Over the entire course of the FFO section of Big Spring, as of autumn 2012, the trout population looks roughly like this: In the upper reaches - essentially the ditch down into the upper part of the restored section - now is about 60% brook trout. From the lower section of the restored area down to the bottom at Nealy Rd, rainbows are about 94% of the population.

-For the future, the PFBC management goal with respect to trout population.....is to get to a ratio of 70% brook/30% rainbow in the entire FFO section within five years (I believe this is numbers, not biomass). There are currently no plans to build a barrier and remove rainbows by electrofishing (these will be reconsidered in five years if necessary). To reduce rainbows in the next few years, it has been proposed to allow harvest in the FFO section. I wish to emphasize that this is a proposal still subject to approval by the commissioners. There is currently no change in the fishing regulations on BS. However, in the future, the FFO section may allow the harvest of several rainbows over 7 inches. This section will continue to be managed as FFO without bait or spin fishing.
This was the basic content and thrust of the meeting.

After the PFBC presentation there was considerable discussion and disagreement among the audience, mostly regarding the 'bows vs. brookies debate. I'd guess that the comments were about evenly divided between those wanting to leave the rainbows alone and those who feel they're a threat to brookies and should be removed or reduced. The meeting concluded with Arway's comments thanking the attendees and reminding us that the PFBC is still receiving comments and eager to hear your opinion on Big Spring.

Posted on: 2012/11/6 7:56


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30
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David,

Thank you for the report!

Posted on: 2012/11/6 8:36


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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Thanks for the report. I'm curious why the oxygen levels are low. Did they have any more details about that?

Were they talking about oxygen levels in the substrate, which has been a topic of study in the past? Or oxygen right in the regular stream flow?

And what is the cause of the low oxygen levels?

Posted on: 2012/11/6 10:40


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30
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Quote:

troutbert wrote:
Thanks for the report. I'm curious why the oxygen levels are low. Did they have any more details about that?

Were they talking about oxygen levels in the substrate, which has been a topic of study in the past? Or oxygen right in the regular stream flow?

And what is the cause of the low oxygen levels?


This is dissolved oxygen in the water flow. During the mornings, they are lower (I don't recall the actual levels) than what is optimal for trout (not below what trout can survive). The biologists did not suggest a reason for this. They did indicate that the planned restoration concept for 2013 may include more wing walls etc at the downstream point to "churn" (my words) the water up a bit and hopefully improve the DO numbers at the bottom of the FFO area.

Posted on: 2012/11/6 10:47


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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Hey Dave, unfortunately couldn't swing the Monday make-up date, so missed the meeting. Curious if they laid out how far downstream they plan to take the work project? The whole way to Nealy Rd? to that last parking lot? just to the big island? Did they get into much detail about that?

tnx.

Posted on: 2012/11/7 7:28


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30
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Quote:

tomitrout wrote:
Hey Dave, unfortunately couldn't swing the Monday make-up date, so missed the meeting. Curious if they laid out how far downstream they plan to take the work project? The whole way to Nealy Rd? to that last parking lot? just to the big island? Did they get into much detail about that?

tnx.


The project will extend downstream to a point just upstream of the (willow tree) parking lot.

Posted on: 2012/11/7 8:48


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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Low DO is pretty common in the morning for bodies of water with a lot os vegetation in them. Vegetation dies overnight and this sucks out the oxygen, as photosynthesis begins the DO number goes up during the day until sundown. That's the simple asnwer.

Posted on: 2012/11/8 15:50
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Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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The PFBC just released the ppt presentation from Monday's meeting. Please forgive my failure to properly post the link as I have not yet mastered that skill.

http://fishandboat.com/water/streams/ ... gSpringPublicMtng2012.pdf


Posted on: 2012/11/8 18:17
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Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30
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Thanks just-jon.

Here's the executive summary written by the Area Fisheries Managers regarding the situation:

Big Spring Biologist's Summary

Posted on: 2012/11/9 7:34


Re: Big Spring Habitat & Management Meeting, Oct. 30

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Unfortunately due to the still lingering effects of Sandy I could not make the meeting but I will say the possible proposal of allowing the harvest of bows is mind boggling. Unfortunately through man, the stream’s habitat has been tipped in the favor of the bows and it has become a world class bow fishery so leave it be. What is going to happen is should this harvest proposal go through, the bows will harvested, the brook trout are never going to reproduce as expected, and the PFBC will finally succeed in turning a once famous and world class brook and bow stream into a stocked stream because there will be no wild fish populating the stream.

Leave it alone. There are many other streams that could actually use the money to help the habitat but this is not one of those streams.

Posted on: 2012/11/9 10:41



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